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 Post subject: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2009, 02:48 
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Well guys, here they are right on the official Hori website:

http://www.hori.jp/products/xbox360/con ... _stick_ex/
http://www.hori.jp/manual/360_ts_po_annai/
http://www.hori.jp/products/xbox360/con ... _stick_ex/


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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2009, 04:34 
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Yep, as everyone called, those look to be the sanwa triggersticks priced at around $80 or so apeace. But, is it just me, or do the buttons look simetsu-ish?

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2009, 04:39 
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I don't like the look of them much, rather bland if you ask me. You'd think for $300 they'd make something a bit aesthetically pleasing to the eye. :roll:

The sticks do look like the Sanwa sticks, and I agree Testy, the buttons seem like Seimitsu's, or a clone of some sort.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2009, 14:41 
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I KNEW they were gonna use the HRAP EX Pro for the base! Makes sense cause the 360 PCB/encoder is already in there and the base is HUGE! Here's a pic for comparison:

Image

Image

I understand the sticks alone are like $170, but DAMN, that ish is like EXTRA vanilla. I guess they know that the fanbase will just do custom art anyway. Yeah, if that's all they are doing then I might get with someone who does woodwork and go the Dreamcazman route. :?

EDIT: Hmmmm...what's even possibly WORSE is that, if I'm reading the bottom of the sticks correctly, the L stick is the D pad, and the R stick is the....RIGHT STICK!?! Like as in, ANALOG STICK!?! So, this means that you're playing with half digital/half analog controls!?!

DO NOT WANT :x

However, if anyone would like to use this as a base, and has access to stick controllers like those cheaper ones in the projects thread, you can pre-order the HRAP EX Pro for $130 here:

http://www.arcadeshock.com/items/pro-ar ... detail.htm

Honestly though, looking at this, going the Menthol route with the cheap PCB and DC sticks is looking like the way to go for some no frills, arcade-perfect VOOT action. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2009, 15:37 
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So not worth the 300 dollar price tag. =/

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 00:03 
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Knoxximus wrote:
EDIT: Hmmmm...what's even possibly WORSE is that, if I'm reading the bottom of the sticks correctly, the L stick is the D pad, and the R stick is the....RIGHT STICK!?! Like as in, ANALOG STICK!?! So, this means that you're playing with half digital/half analog controls!?!
This isn't an issue, since the analog stick input will be designed to be digital instead. I modified the analog trigger buttons for use with the digital weapon buttons on my Twin Sticks, and I can assure you that it works fine.

Since this is an "official" controller, I bet that Microsoft had something to do with the crazy control scheme (i.e. having ABXY as the right stick is too confusing, since you need those buttons for menu navigation).

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 02:24 
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MentholMoose wrote:
Knoxximus wrote:
EDIT: Hmmmm...what's even possibly WORSE is that, if I'm reading the bottom of the sticks correctly, the L stick is the D pad, and the R stick is the....RIGHT STICK!?! Like as in, ANALOG STICK!?! So, this means that you're playing with half digital/half analog controls!?!
This isn't an issue, since the analog stick input will be designed to be digital instead. I modified the analog trigger buttons for use with the digital weapon buttons on my Twin Sticks, and I can assure you that it works fine.

I agree, as the sticks themselves are digital, the input will be digital. In regards to the L & R trigger, you can either lock the pot in place and solder to it or remove it totally and use resistors instead, which in effect makes them digital, either on or off.

For the sticks, you can make the thumb sticks digital with an existing 360 controller PCB, but it requires the removal of the sticks and a few resistors to solder in place, not too difficult. I could've done that with my stick, but I couldn't have been bothered. I know down on the right stick is A, so all is good. ;)

MentholMoose wrote:
Since this is an "official" controller, I bet that Microsoft had something to do with the crazy control scheme (i.e. having ABXY as the right stick is too confusing, since you need those buttons for menu navigation).

You can't have the noobs out there not knowing what button to press now can we? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 02:37 
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LOL! I can actually navigate with my modded DC stick quite easily...and I actually prefer it for messaging over the stock controller.

So Menthol...what's your opinion about the "bang for your buck" factor?

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 08:06 
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IMO, this is pretty decent bang for your buck. I've written to several places and they have all quoted me $100 for each stick, shipping not included. That's at least $200 for the sticks alone. Add in the PCB, buttons, wiring, and everything else, you're looking at 20-70 bucks. Depending on how nice you want your enclosure, whether you gut something else (Hori HRAP), or get a custom fabricated one, you're looking at potentially another $130.

It would be hard to build one on your own of comparable quality for less than $350, unless you happen to already have a woodshop or metalshop set up in your garage.

I do wish that they went the route of using a sheet metal base like the Sega Virtual Stick High Grade though... for $300, I would like something that feels extra hefty. I've never held an HRAP before, but I imagine it's plastic and doesn't feel as heavy.

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 09:47 
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Quote:
IMO, this is pretty decent bang for your buck.


I respectfully disagree. I'll take you point by point as to why.

Quote:
I've written to several places and they have all quoted me $100 for each stick, shipping not included. That's at least $200 for the sticks alone


The sanwa company, Japan based, like HORI, has the sticks listed at about 8500 yen, roughly $85 or so, give or take due to conversion rates. Considering shipping isn't a factor in this case, your looking at about $170. However I imagine a company like HORI gets discounts for ordering in bulk, it would make no sense to do otherwise...but thats purely speculation.

Quote:
Add in the PCB


Here's an interesting point. A Mad Catz PCB goes for about $25 in america. A microsoft official controller $30. Wired by the way. I assume however that production and cost to the company is much less than that. HORI makes it's stuff in house, so a personal estimate is maybe $15 per pcb in parts and assembly...this is just a personal guess mind you.

Quote:
buttons, wiring


We have 6 buttons, they look simetsu though they may be modded sanwa or in-house made by HORI. If they are made by Hori than this point is moot, but lets assume that since they used sanwa joysticks they didn't cheap out on the buttons. Thats maybe $2 per button on the high end. So $12 or so for the buttons? The only thing i'm not sure of is the guide button assembly...maybe another $1 or $2, depending on where the materials are sourced from. Wiring is reletively cheap, though I imagine the actuall wiring could be used to factor in labor costs...

Quote:
or get a custom fabricated one, you're looking at potentially another $130.


A bare custom container will cost anywhere from $50 upwards, and thats basically what HORI used in this twinstick, nothing very special about it, it's plastic, and metal, like everything else in HORI's lineup...

Quote:
It would be hard to build one on your own of comparable quality for less than $350, unless you happen to already have a woodshop or metalshop set up in your garage.


Or your mentholmoose, who has litterally arcade quality twinsticks for, if i'm not mistaken, about $200+? Actually, I built my twinsticks for about $35, but I got a lot for free, or I had some things lying around already. Quality can come into question but still...

Quote:
for $300, I would like something that feels extra hefty. I've never held an HRAP before, but I imagine it's plastic and doesn't feel as heavy.


If it's anything like the Tekken 5 HORI (which I own) than it's a heavy-ish plastic base, possably a metal top plate (the t5 stick has a plastic top-plate if i'm not mistaken), and a heavy-er metal bottom plate, very sturdy, stable, definitly has weight to it. There where plenty of warnings on the box about the weight. :P

My major gripe, is for $300, I want it to look like I paid $300 for it. It has the aesthetic appeal of this thing: http://store.videogamecentral.com/peuncorearco.html

Thats the Pelican Real arcade pro, for $50. It looks like it's worth $50. And so does the HORI VO stick. It looks like someone took my T5 hori stick, swapped the top panel, and spraypainted everything, even the red triggers/buttons on the sticks themselves, with a few matte-black spray-cans. For $300 it should have an aesthetic value to it. The $50 Saturn sticks had aesthetic value, the $50-$70 Dreamcast sticks had a stylish charm that matched the Dreamcast itself. This has the aesthetic charm of a $50 wood case with black contact paper on it.

It's embarrassing. I guess HORI's concern was function before fashion, even so, for $300 was it too much to ask to at least add a VO logo somewhere to it? The Tangram Eye to add some color? You couldn't screenprint the BUNNY fei-yen/angelin picture on to the top plate for lols and "kawaii"'s? Seriously? Something? Nothing? For $300? Comeon...

Even Mad-Catz can do better than that, and thats saying something I think...

Personally, I could probably do something comparable for cheaper, if not by too much, maybe around $250 or so. Having said all that, HORI is a company, so making a profit is foremost in the company's mind. Still, I hope the pre-order limit number is small, otherwise HORI will be making no money from this, thats just my opinion anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 11:08 
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Knoxximus wrote:
LOL! I can actually navigate with my modded DC stick quite easily...and I actually prefer it for messaging over the stock controller.

So Menthol...what's your opinion about the "bang for your buck" factor?


Knoxximus, you better let Owen at Kotaku know about this as he posted your story:

http://kotaku.com/5290033/heres-your-30 ... -a-15-game

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 12:14 
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Cacophanus wrote:
Knoxximus wrote:
LOL! I can actually navigate with my modded DC stick quite easily...and I actually prefer it for messaging over the stock controller.

So Menthol...what's your opinion about the "bang for your buck" factor?


Knoxximus, you better let Owen at Kotaku know about this as he posted your story:

http://kotaku.com/5290033/heres-your-30 ... -a-15-game


Haha! NICE! More awareness of the awesomeness that is VOOT can only be a good thing.

Oratan servers....BRACE YOURSELVES!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 14:02 
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Testament/Seven7 wrote:
Quote:
for $300, I would like something that feels extra hefty. I've never held an HRAP before, but I imagine it's plastic and doesn't feel as heavy.


If it's anything like the Tekken 5 HORI (which I own) than it's a heavy-ish plastic base, possably a metal top plate (the t5 stick has a plastic top-plate if i'm not mistaken), and a heavy-er metal bottom plate, very sturdy, stable, definitly has weight to it. There where plenty of warnings on the box about the weight. :P

I have a HRAP for PS2, and I agree... no need to worry about heftiness. It's a pretty bulky stick. Definitely way heavier than the DC or Saturn twin sticks.

I agree about the looks, though. It looks homemade. Actually, considering the slick stuff that some people are making, they don't look good enough to be homemade. :) Artistically, Hori did a nice job on the Death Smiles stick even though they only made a limited number, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same here (admittedly, the art was the main selling point of that one, though).

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 14:22 
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Yeah they're not much to look at, though the buzz is that these pics may not necessarily represent the look of the finalized product. Here's to hoping they spruce up the aesthetics a bit if they actually go to production.

From what I can gather of a quick peek at the Japanese feedback, a lot of them have a problem with the look of the Sanwa grips compared to the Dreamcast and Saturn grips.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 15:54 
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wraith88 wrote:
Yeah they're not much to look at, though the buzz is that these pics may not necessarily represent the look of the finalized product. Here's to hoping they spruce up the aesthetics a bit if they actually go to production.


Which is still not a good way to attract pre-orders. If you want people to buy it, you have to make them want it..HORI fails in this case. Maybe the final product "will" look better, but if they can't attract enough pre-orders, we'll never know.

Was it too much to add some "placeholder" art or something? Anything? Guess so...

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 18:33 
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Testament/Seven7 wrote:
Or your mentholmoose, who has litterally arcade quality twinsticks for, if i'm not mistaken, about $200+?
I bought mine used and a long time ago, so the price I paid is not relevant. The used prices are very high now (several VOOT VER.5.2 versus city panels have sold recently on Yahoo! Japan Auctions for around $300, and there's an OMG versus city panel currently at $200).

Retail price on the VOOT arcade parts would be a lot more. MSRP for OEM Sega versus city panels is about $150, so the VER.5.2 versus city panels were probably about that much (assuming they were ever available separately, and not only in a kit). Considering the Sanwa JLJ-PL2-8V is $85, I think it's safe to assume the OEM VOOT stick assemblies were the same or more.

wraith88 wrote:
From what I can gather of a quick peek at the Japanese feedback, a lot of them have a problem with the look of the Sanwa grips compared to the Dreamcast and Saturn grips.
That's my main complaint, too. For such a high price, I expect it to be "arcade perfect"... and, not just using any random arcade parts, but the actual VOOT arcade hardware, including the grips.

I would much rather see some standard joysticks adapted for VOOT with the real VOOT grips, like the DC Twin Sticks. The high price tag on the Hori Twin Sticks guarantees that only a relatively few hard core players will ever get to use them.

Additionally, the Hori sticks are way too plain (who am I kidding, they are just ugly!). The matte black doesn't work for me at all. The should at least use an Xbox 360 color scheme.

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 20:45 
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Testament,

I don't debate that it costs Hori less than $300 to make this at all. Rather, I am saying that based on my research, it would cost me personally at least $350 to make the same stick with the same parts that they use.

I've contacted 3 different Sanwa distributers and they have all quoted me $100 per stick before shipping. Where are you able to get them for $85 a piece? I contacted Akihabarashop jp and Pippboy (both are pretty well know SRK.com suppliers), and Video Games NY, who have some sort of dealer account with Sanwa. All said $100 before shipping.

Also, where are you able to get a nice enclosure that is the same quality of Hori HRAP cases for $50? I have not been able to find any cases at all. It would cost at least $100 to commission a custom-made one from any of the custom stick makers. The alternative is to pick up a used HRAP for $130 and just gut it.

To me, $300 is kind of worth it, since it would take me a ton of time and effort, and probably more than $300 to build the same Hori stick. If I am willing to compromise on parts and quality of materials, I'm sure I can build it for less than $300... but my point is that it would cost me more time and money to make an equivalent based on my current means (not having power tools or a woodshop/metalshop set up).

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 21:04 
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graefocs wrote:
I've contacted 3 different Sanwa distributers and they have all quoted me $100 per stick before shipping. Where are you able to get them for $85 a piece? I contacted Akihabarashop jp and Pippboy (both are pretty well know SRK.com suppliers), and Video Games NY, who have some sort of dealer account with Sanwa. All said $100 before shipping.
The MSRP is ¥8,500, listed on the Sanwa joystick web-page. Try contacting them directly to see if they can sell it to you directly (Seimitsu apparently does, even internationally).

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 21:16 
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Well would a japanese site be able to take English requests?

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 Post subject: Re: Official Twin Sticks displayed on Hori site
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2009, 21:22 
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Quote:
Testament,

I don't debate that it costs Hori less than $300 to make this at all. Rather, I am saying that based on my research, it would cost me personally at least $350 to make the same stick with the same parts that they use.


Point.

Quote:
I've contacted 3 different Sanwa distributers and they have all quoted me $100 per stick before shipping. Where are you able to get them for $85 a piece? I contacted Akihabarashop jp and Pippboy (both are pretty well know SRK.com suppliers), and Video Games NY, who have some sort of dealer account with Sanwa. All said $100 before shipping.


As MM said, the price is about 8500 Yen, from the Sanwa PDF catalog. Once you factor in having to go get it, shipping, and the need to make a profit, $100 per stick is alright. HORI dosen't have to deal with most of that...though I guess they'd add markup anyway :P

Quote:
Also, where are you able to get a nice enclosure that is the same quality of Hori HRAP cases for $50? I have not been able to find any cases at all. It would cost at least $100 to commission a custom-made one from any of the custom stick makers. The alternative is to pick up a used HRAP for $130 and just gut it.


I've seen some pre-gutted cases go for about $50 before, custom "blank" cases, no art or paint or holes etc, go for around the same price from what i've seen...maybe the price has gone up since i've last checked, I guess it depends on where you live etc...*shrugs*

Quote:
To me, $300 is kind of worth it, since it would take me a ton of time and effort, and probably more than $300 to build the same Hori stick. If I am willing to compromise on parts and quality of materials, I'm sure I can build it for less than $300... but my point is that it would cost me more time and money to make an equivalent based on my current means (not having power tools or a woodshop/metalshop set up).


Another fair point. I built my set cheaply, but i had a jigsaw, and a drill, and most of an MDF sheet left over from building my Sanwa GGXX stick, got some stuff free or cheaply, so meh. I'll admit that the cost of equipment will drive up the cost of a project....but factor in shipping etc and this stick may end up costing more anyway, albiet not by as much.

Not trying to say your wrong, per se, just trying to make sense of it all...thats all ^^;;;

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