Shooting through bombs

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Porcupine
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Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 25 Jun 2014, 19:55

I did not know until recently that quite a wide variety of attacks can shoot through bombs! How many of you guys already knew?

Shooting through bombs seems to be determined by the priority of your projectile. It's the same priority that is referenced when two projectiles collide to determine which shot survives, or if they just pass through or cancel each other out. Projectiles tend to have a global priority but in rare cases the priority might change depending upon what they go up against. For example, Angelan ice mirrors are destroyed by bombs but are able to block any other shot in the game.

I think that almost all bombs have equal priority to each other even though their other properties may vary tremendously. In particular I tested several variations of Temjin bombs, Grys-Vok standing LW napalm, and crouching LW for double napalm, with spot tests on other things like Grys-Vok back dash RW mushroom clouds and Fei-Yen pink heart bomb explosions. Bomb explosions pass through each other so bombs are a basic method of penetrating other bombs. But most types of bombs don't shoot through, they just make another bomb on the same spot.

There are a few bombs that have zero priority so the explosion is only for looks or damage. Examples are AphS LTCW and crLTCW, or hyper Fei-Yen crLTCW explosion splash. They don't block anything, which is a good thing because they have enough ammo to repeat those attacks without recharging. Hyper Fei-Yen standing LTCW explosion splash seems to have an extremely low priority. It blocks a few piddly attacks, but for the most part it can also be considered to block nothing as even most plain standing RWs penetrate it.

There are no hard general rules for which projectiles have enough priority to penetrate typical bombs but turbo and crouching attacks are more likely to work. Most dash attacks do not work, however for many mechs forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, and backward-diagonal dash crRW work.

I tested all moves for the following mechs and came up with a list of attacks that go through bombs. There may be errors so contributions and corrections are welcome.

Temjin: RTLW, crLTCW, RTCW, crRTCW, crLTRW, crRTRW, forward dash crCW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has LW bombs, surfboard, and spinning sword)

Grys-Vok: all LTLW, all LTCW, RTCW, crRTCW, all LTRW, all RTRW, forward dash crCW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, all side dash RW, all backward-diagonal dash RW, all back dash RW
(also has LW napalm and numerous other kinds of bombs and explosions)

The actual projectiles for jumping LTCW, back dash RW, and back dash crRW travel through bombs, not just their explosions. Only the initial projectile of all side and backward-diagonal dash RW variants travels through bombs, not the cluster missiles they later split into. The crRTCW and forward dash crCW nukes also go through bombs, but the super nuke doesn't and will detonate immediately if you fire it while you are inside an enemy's bomb.

Raiden: crLTLW, all LTCW, all RTCW, crLTRW, all RTRW, all dash crLW, all back dash CW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has LW ground mines and bombs)

Fei-Yen: all LTLW, all RTLW, crLW, crLTCW, all RTCW, crRTRW, forward dash crLW, forward-diagonal dash crCW, side dash crCW, backward-diagonal dash crCW, pink-only all back dash RW
(also has CW heart bomb explosions for some variants, with more variants while hyper)

It's worth noting that 5.66 Fei-Yen got damage alterations to all her dashing RWs except for hyper Fei-Yen's side, backward-diagonal, and back dashes which they forgot to update. That's probably why the back dash RWs only penetrate bombs with pink Fei-Yen. Also worth noting is that all Fei-Yen's forward dash LWs do increased damage in 5.66 but only on the pink Fei-Yen. So it actually does more damage pink than hyper now, but only when straight forward. Only forward dash crLW penetrates bombs, and it does penetrate when hyper too.

Cypher: RTLW, jumping RTLW, LTCW, jumping LTCW, crCW, all RTCW, crRTRW, jumping RTRW, air forward-diagonal dash CW, air side dash CW, air backward-diagonal dash CW
(also has RTCW bomb explosions and SLC dive)

Angelan: crRTCW, crLTRW, jumping LTRW, all RTRW

Specineff: all RTLW, crLW, all LTCW, all RTCW, crRTRW, all dash crLW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has sliding board)

10/80 SP: RTLW, crLTCW, RTCW, crRTCW, crLTRW, crRTRW, jumping RTRW, forward dash crCW
(also has LW bombs and gliding ram)

Bal-Bados: all RTLW, jumping CW, all crRW, all forward dash LW, forward-diagonal dash LW, air forward-diagonal dash LW, backward-diagonal dash crLW, forward dash crRW, forward-diagonal dash crRW
(the same applies for attacks launched from set ERLs or the pyramid)

Dordray: crLTLW, jumping LTLW, RTLW, crRTLW, all LTCW, RTCW, crRTCW, LTRW, RTRW, crRTRW, all dash CW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has rushes and select RW bomb explosions)

All dash CW means all air, regular, and crouch dash CW attacks.

Stein-Vok: all LTLW, all RTLW, LTCW, jumping LTCW, all RTCW, all LTRW, crRTRW, jumping RTRW, air back dash LW, forward dash crCW, air forward-diagonal dash CW, air side dash CW, air backward-diagonal dash CW, back dash CW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has LW bombs)

This arsenal is the result of stealing other VR's attacks that happened to go through bombs. Funny how back dash CW penetrates bombs since it came from Raiden's back dash CW laser cage, even though it's a regular dash laser on Stein-Vok. Meanwhile all his RTLW projectiles pass through bombs, whereas on Temjin whom they are stolen from, only standing RTLW goes through and the rest detonate on other bombs. Stein-Vok's special giant ball also travels through bombs.

Apharmd C: all LTLW, all RTLW, jumping LW, crLTCW, crRTCW, jumping RTCW, all LTRW, all air dash LW, forward dash crCW, forward dash crRW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has LW napalm and bombs, and flying kick)

As before, when LW napalm or bomb weapons are listed that means the actual projectile travels through other bombs. Strange that only Apharmd aerial LWs travel through bombs while the same is not true for other VRs, though it makes little difference anyway since these are themselves bomb attacks.

Apharmd B: all LTLW, all RTLW, jumping LW, crLTCW, crCW, all RTCW, all LTRW, all air dash LW, all dash crCW, air back dash RW
(also has LW napalm and bombs, and flying kick)

Apharmd S: crLTLW, jumping LTLW, all RTLW, jumping LW, all CW(L), jumping RTCW(R), all LTRW, all air dash LW, all forward dash CW(L), all back dash CW(L), forward dash RW, forward dash crRW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has LW napalm and bombs, and shoulder ram)

Generally speaking just the left side missile of CW penetrates bombs. All CW(L) means any CW attack that is not a dashing attack, which are listed later. This includes the special crLTCW(L) planted missile, which penetrates bombs but has terrible priority versus anything else, as even standing RWs can shoot it away. An exception is standing LTCW(L) since that move does not exist, though the input does reduce energy gauge use. Only the initial projectile of jumping RTCW(R) travels through bombs, not the cluster missiles it splits into.

Ajim: all LW, all CW except jumping CW, crLTRW, crRTRW, all dash LW, all dash CW, forward-diagonal dash crRW, side dash crRW, backward-diagonal dash crRW
(also has LW homing ball bomb explosions and self-destruct nuke)
Last edited by Porcupine on 28 May 2015, 13:30, edited 24 times in total.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby MentholMoose » 25 Jun 2014, 23:34

As a Grys-Vok player I am painfully aware of this. ;) I haven't don't extensive testing for various match-ups but I kind of know what to look out for when playing. I think this area is one of the major complaints about the Xbox 5.66 port since there are some differences from arcade 5.66.
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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby FlyExponent » 27 Jun 2014, 13:07

As another Grys-Vok player, I am also painfully aware of this. There's a reason why my first 4-5 months in VO was massive frustration cause I felt like Vok, for me, moved too slow for everyone to shoot through my attacks.

Then I got good. But yeah I have noticed that, and I have to account for basically everyone due to it.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 16 Feb 2015, 17:25

I'm going to start trying to update this list again. In particular, a huge oversight I had made is that Cypher's air forward-diagonal dash CW, air side dash CW, air backward-diagonal dash CW, and jumping RTRW penetrate bombs. These are all great moves for Cypher and in particular he now has dashing attacks that penetrate bombs. It's even better because they are air dashes, making him the only VR with true air dash attacks that penetrate bombs (Grys-Vok and Fei-Yen also have a very limited capability to do that). Cypher's air forward dash CW homing beam does not work. Also his back dash crCW does not work, in case Cypher players were thinking all his 4-way missiles can penetrate bombs.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Palmpoa » 16 Feb 2015, 21:32

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 16 Feb 2015, 23:47

If you have a working Dreamcast, its Training Mode is a lot better than the Xbox 360 version's. You can control both players with either two controllers, or by quickly switching control between players in the training menu. Otherwise, just find me or someone else who likes to do tests, and we can try to test it in Player Matches.

Finally finished the topic's list, it ended up having more attacks than I expected with the later mechs I tested. I thought about trying to subjectively rank the VRs according to their ability to shoot through bombs, but figured that's too difficult to do without being an expert with all VRs. Quantity isn't the only thing that matters, after all. I guess we can still conclude that all VR's except Angelan and maybe 10/80 SP have plenty of good ways to shoot through bombs, but at the same time bombs are still great for protection against almost any VR because they still block a lot of good attacks.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Viper2 » 28 Feb 2015, 07:03

This is also present in VOOM (PC version is the only one I've tried...), even being a stock tactic for the CPU (throw bomb, shoot through bomb explosion at you while you can't see the CPU-controlled mech - of course it also works the other way around if you have homing weapons). AFAIK, in VOOM it depends on 1) when the shots pass through the explosion 'cloud' - when the bomb detonates or just afterwards, and 2) where they do - the closer to the explosion center, the more often the shots are blocked by the explosion.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 28 Feb 2015, 15:25

You are right about players shooting through their bombs but that's something different from what this thread is talking about. You can always shoot through your own bombs in any VO game with all attacks. I guess I should have mentioned that earlier, so thanks for bringing it up. The list I made in the topic thread is attacks that can go through the opponent's bomb. I don't know how common such attacks are in VOOM, or Force for that matter. (Most regular bombs aren't really that good in Force and people rarely use them.)

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Viper2 » 08 Mar 2015, 05:51

Firing through the opponent's bombs is also possible in VOOM, that's what I meant with "- of course it also works the other way around if you have homing weapons". Most bombs are not very useful, IMHO. Some VRs can jump/fly over bomb explosions...

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 18 May 2015, 11:13

We just tested this in VOOM and there are no attacks in the game that can fire through enemy bombs. If you thought there were, you probably fired too early, too late, or missed the bomb in some other way. Also, if you are inside the enemy bomb anything you fire will travel through (this is unique to VOOM).

The only penetrating option is to use another bomb, however just as in VOOT the bomb projectile does not penetrate, just the explosion. So bombs will be made on the same spot, while napalm and phalanx can travel through.

Bombs are more powerful in VOOM than any succeeding game. Offensively, their damage and hitting ability is the highest. Defensively, they last the longest and are not penetrable. They also have the best energy gauge performance.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Viper2 » 18 May 2015, 23:20

Porcupine wrote:We just tested this in VOOM and there are no attacks in the game that can fire through enemy bombs. If you thought there were, you probably fired too early, too late, or missed the bomb in some other way. Also, if you are inside the enemy bomb anything you fire will travel through (this is unique to VOOM).


(bolding mine) So, can attacks fire through bombs or not? :roll:

You know, if you use what borders on a personal dictionary for defining actions, then you can always disagree with anything other people say and be right yourself.

(Just a small pet peeve with your posting style.)

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 19 May 2015, 02:10

I think you are the one who needs to get a clue and stop posting idiotic stuff. :evil:

Every single thing you have ever posted regarding game mechanics since I've joined this message board has been factually wrong. It's true that occasionally wording has interfered with proper interpretations of what was said, but ultimately you've said nothing of importance that was correct, and many things of importance that were wrong.

Now studying game mechanics is a difficult thing, and it's very easy to test or understand things incorrectly. So someone should not be scolded for making mistakes. And someone should not be chastized for having differing opinions on gameplay, philosophy, or tactics. But when you have made a factual mistake on every recent gameplay topic you've spoken in, others have to question whether or not you are deliberately posting misinformation just to flood threads with garbage. I don't think this is your intent, but if it is then you should be banned from this message board in my opinion.

I ask that you do not reply to any gameplay-related threads that I start, in the future. For the time being I'm still fine to talk with you on other topics.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Viper2 » 20 May 2015, 11:07

What I mean, I've observed while playing VOOM (PC - perhaps that matters?) that attacks sometimes seem to go through bomb explosions and hit the enemy hiding behind the explosion and post this to this board (as I may do). Then you post that that is not the case at all, yet in the last sentence of the same paragraph note that in certain circumstances it can happen, thus partially negating what you said just a moment earlier. So to me it looks like you are contradicting yourself. Thus my question (and the eyerolling was because I felt annoyed).

As for the "personal dictionary" thing, this is not first time where your use of really narrow and unclear definitions causes confusion.
So please be clearer in what you are saying.

And I will decide for myself whether or not to post replies to your threads, thank you very much. Threads on message boards are not the personal property of the people who start them, board administrators and moderators excluded.

Regarding the trolling accusation, I must really have a lot of time on my hands if I specifically crafted all the information I posted in some other threads just to troll everyone here. :banana: But perhaps you can tell us more about that than I do?

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 20 May 2015, 11:31

While I try to do my best with explanations, there is no need for me to cater towards someone like you, who does not play the game with anyone that I know of. If you are annoyed with the style of my posts, and cannot handle situations where others point out your errors, then you should not invade my threads.

It's true that threads are not my personal property, but continuing to post shallow content in them after I have made it clear that I do not want you to do so is hostile, and can be interpreted as flooding.

I did not make this request lightly. I have tolerated your nonsensical information and queries for months. Even your posts can be helpful, as long as they are corrected by others, because they may lead to further discussion and investigation on the topic. But once your attitude resurfaced you became a negative presence on this message board.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Viper2 » 20 May 2015, 23:27

Okay, you're gonna get what you want, Mr. Porcupine.

You have my sincere apologies for the rolling eyes icon and the tone of my post on May 19th which set this thing off; they were out of line and I should have voiced that differently.

However, your post speaks volumes about your own unability to deal with contradictory information or opinions like an adult. Instead of adressing my complaint in a mature manner, you choose to try and discredit me by posting highly biased, inflamatory content doubting all information I posted on this forum, in your own threads or in others. But perhaps you could point out where, outside of your own threads, I did so.

I understand testing gaming mechanisms is quite complex, and that you put quite a lot of work into this, but frankly that that is no reason for writing the following kind of ****:

I did not make this request lightly. I have tolerated your nonsensical information and queries for months. Even your posts can be helpful, as long as they are corrected by others, because they may lead to further discussion and investigation on the topic. But once your attitude resurfaced you became a negative presence on this message board.

(Dude, you sound like an sociopath having a temper tantrum over...a computer game. Also, pot. kettle.)

You make a very serious accusation, so back it up. With facts.

You state yourself that you like facts, and are of the opinion others should not post "idiotic" things. Surely that also applies to everything else you post?



But yeah, it doesn't seem like a good idea to post replies to your threads. That goes for me, and for others, seeing your manner of dealing with other opinions. So I won't. Also, there's a cute little option in the User Control Panel that lets you ignore users. Perhaps you should ignore me, so you don't see my "nonsensical" information, in your threads or elsewhere. Goodbye.

(if a moderator thinks I am out of line with this post, please edit my post and PM me with an explanation)

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 26 Jan 2016, 19:11

It seems that RT bombs in general have a slightly higher priority than normal bombs. Once again this appears to hold for all VRs, even though their LWs may look very different. I'm not going to redo the whole list for RT bombs, though.

Another interesting thing I studied recently is the invincibility granted by hyper Fei-Yen standing CW. The invincibility duration is roughly one whole second, which is consistent with how it looks. The pink spiral shield shows when the invincibility is active. Anytime after the shot comes out you can cancel into movement but will lose the invincibility.

Unfortunately, it turns out that it's not actually invincible. The shield has a priority which is similar to that of regular bombs, though it fares better against some attacks and worse against others. Some added examples that penetrate it are Grys-Vok crouching CW, Angelan standing RTCW, Bal crouching CW, and all VR laser attacks. It blocks most of the damage from Specineff standing RTRW or Cypher LW, but the dagger still gets stuck in her butt and drains life. On the other hand, some added examples it blocks are Grys-Vok standing LTCW, all Fei-Yen LW variants, and most LW bomb and napalm explosions, including RT bombs. It does not block Grys-Vok crouching LW. It surprisingly blocks Fei-Yen crouching LW, which may be the highest priority projectile in the game, even canceling out Angelan ice mirrors.

Hyper Fei-Yen standing RTCW gives the same invincibility. The spiral shield is yellow instead of pink, but it has the same priority and duration.

Hyper Fei-Yen standing CW also has invincibility in VOOM. Likewise, I have known for a while that it is not completely invulnerable. It either has a priority like in VOOT, or it may wear off earlier than it looks. The spiral shield lasts over one second in VOOM, that's how long it takes the standing hyper heart to file.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 19 Oct 2016, 18:27

Some slight corrections to VOOM bomb penetration. It's not being inside the bomb that allows all shots to go through it. Rather, once a bomb explosion hits you it instantly deactivates. The graphics don't disappear but it's gone.

Also, VOOM bomb projectiles do travel through other bombs. It's not just the explosion.

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Re: Shooting through bombs

Postby Porcupine » 10 Apr 2018, 19:10

Napalm is quite useful in Virtual On Index, particularly with veteran mode Apharmd S players who like to forward dash inside their napalm, which matches speed perfectly. As far as I can tell, napalm is unpenetrable in Index. It even blocks other maximum priority things like Bal jump CW and jump RTCW lasers (the graphics for the lasers remain).

Regular bombs don't have the same infinite priority in Index. They can typically be penetrated by any turbo attacks. Temjin's LTLW and jump LTLW bombs have higher priority and in particular are able to destroy the drones from Grys-Vok's super.


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