Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

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MentholMoose
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Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by MentholMoose »

So it seems every topic on VOOT I've seen on other forums has people arguing the suitability of the control pad. So what do you think?

First some recommended reading, by some hard core VOOT players:
Virtual Ontaku, by Ollie Barder (Cacophanus).
Two Sticks of Fury, by Scott Francis.

Let's see some reasonable analysis of this subject. Here are some of my thoughts...

VER.5.66 is different that previous VOOT versions, for example it has faster movement. So, a control pad may have worked on the comparatively slow VER.5.45, but may not on VER.5.66.

Many people have never played VOOT against anyone good (or anyone at all), and we all know how horrible the AI is. So, they may be thinking that the control pad works based only on their experience against AI opponents.

Every VR can be played in many different ways. So, there are many styles of play, and some may work with the limitations of a control pad. Will such styles hold up against those requiring Twin Sticks? Are some VRs more suitable (less unsuitable?) for the control pad?

I saw a thread with people questioning the need to rotate. This sounded ridiculous at first, but then I thought that maybe some styles don't require it, or even work well without it. Although, this argument sounds like it's based on play against the AI...

You only have one walking speed with the control pad (at least on DC VOOT). Does this matter? I think yes, but it might not be required for all styles. With my Grys-Vok style, I frequently am walking, but may not want to be moving at the higher-speed walk (e.g. to stay behind a small obstruction... like my evil strategy on sanctuary).

I've heard that everything done with Twin Sticks can be done with a controller. I don't doubt this, but it's irrelevant. What is important is if a control pad user can perform the right thing in every situation. Sometimes the necessary input may be very difficult to pull off with a control pad, and having to pause and think, or having any difficultly with it, or even not having complete confidence is a notable disadvantage.

However, with VOOT there will be more than one option in almost every situation, so maybe there will always be an option that is fine with the control pad. If the play style is geared for this, well then maybe the pad is not a disadvantage at all.

You can jump cancel very easily with the control pad!! Such a huge advantage makes it be better than Twin Sticks, right? I think not, but it is an example of an input that is easier with the control pad (with suitably quick wrists you can do an identical jump cancel with Twin Sticks, but the input is admittedly slightly harder). Is there anything else easier with the control pad, and is it an advantage over Twin Sticks?
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by RVR - 42 »

Haha! *high fives* The time old argument between stick users and pad users. I've always been a pad user. Never not been one. =P Grew up playing on consoles...without flashy peripherals or anything. Only time im not using a pad is when I go to the local arcade to play Hydro Thunder. But honestly...I can only argue for the pad side. I've never even touched VO twin sticks[have played a game that used a very similiar set up though, and it was great]so i'm not going to say a pad is just as good as a set of sticks, but I can't say it's not either. As you can see...i'm straddling the fence. xD!

I really do wish I had grown up with the sticks though. I think i'm going to try and get some VOOT in tonight...on my pad. There's something about it...just feels right to me. *shrugs*

And i'll surely read those articles you posted, MM. I'm very interested to hear what they have to say.

Oh...almost forgot to add this...what you were saying about a pad being suitable against the lame AI and the thought of rotating not being necessary by some, definitely holds true for me. I admit rotating would be so vry nice in some situations...but for my playstyle[vs. the AI lol] it's not required. and personally I have not ever played VO against anyone[except this one guy, but it was split screen and I have this thing...where I don't like going all out on people unless there's something more than bragging rights to be gained lol]so I have no experience in competitive play. But I know there's a difference. A big difference. And you say 5.66 is even faster than 5.45?! Good lord! How did they do it? XD!
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by NGEFreek »

Well, I personally got quite used to playing with the controller in VOOT, since I never could track for a total control 3 adapter when I had my saturn sticks :( but as far as the "D00D! Controller is betar!" argument, I suppose its up to your preference. As MentholMoose pointed out, unless you have the knack for it, a jump cancel is easier to do on the controller, but subtle tweaks like rotating at the end of a dash to re-allign yourself with the enemy is much easier on Twinsticks, which I think will be much more important in this 5.66 release.

As for which VR's are more "useable" with twinsticks, I guess all of them, and everyone can be used effectivley with a pad. BUT for people who are into high level competition (all of us obviously) the little things like the rotation can be the difference maker if you don't have to jump cancel.

Blah, its too early, I don't know what I'm trying to explain. Ultimatley Twinsticks will rule all because thats what the game was made to use, but FWIW the Pad does a damn fine job as well.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by RVR - 42 »

Hahah early indeed. VO is jsut so dang technical you know. It was waaaaaay ahead of its time. I really wish I had gotten full 100% exposure to the game[arcade cabinet, twin sticks, competition, etc], but I didn't. So i'm kinda playing catch up with it right now. But I agree...little details like detailing the angle of your dash and whatnot...is very important in competitive play. What's more important than the attacks you can execute...is being setup to use them most effectively. For sure. But yea...personally the controller was a gem for VOOT. That's all I know unfortunately. =/
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Schooly D »

I'm going to make a DC -> X360 controller mod just to anger you Twin Stickers.

But, as an aside, you ever think you'll give a step-by-step instruction piece on how to mod Saturn/DC twin sticks to connect to the 360? I do have a pair of Saturn sticks that have just been sitting in my closet collecting dust.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Testament/Seven7 »

evenpar123 wrote:I'm going to make a DC -> X360 controller mod just to anger you Twin Stickers.
You realize thats unnessesary right? Put a dreamcast controller next to an xbox or a 360 controller...minus the second joystick they are practically identical...There are some differences yes but...
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by RVR - 42 »

Testament/Seven7 wrote:
evenpar123 wrote:I'm going to make a DC -> X360 controller mod just to anger you Twin Stickers.
You realize thats unnessesary right? Put a dreamcast controller next to an xbox or a 360 controller...minus the second joystick they are practically identical...There are some differences yes but...
Besides...once you see SEGA versus Microsoft...there's no denying. SEGA rocks the charts! :) *old school SEGA fanboyism returns gradually*
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Schooly D »

Testament/Seven7 wrote:
evenpar123 wrote:I'm going to make a DC -> X360 controller mod just to anger you Twin Stickers.
You realize thats unnessesary right? Put a dreamcast controller next to an xbox or a 360 controller...minus the second joystick they are practically identical...There are some differences yes but...
The 360's digital control pad sucks.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by circuscommando »

well one thing is that the arcade stick do just what they say: provide the arcade expreience, which is very key for me as i love arcade games.

another is that certain people do need turning, take Raiden for example; a skilled player can manually aim the twin-mounted shoulder lasers in any direction he chooses and can cut off dashing enemies.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by RVR - 42 »

circuscommando wrote:well one thing is that the arcade stick do just what they say: provide the arcade expreience, which is very key for me as i love arcade games.

another is that certain people do need turning, take Raiden for example; a skilled player can manually aim the twin-mounted shoulder lasers in any direction he chooses and can cut off dashing enemies.
Heck yea...that would be awesome, not gonna lie. :] I would definitely want to be able to do this. I needs meh some stiks!
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by MentholMoose »

evenpar123 wrote:I'm going to make a DC -> X360 controller mod just to anger you Twin Stickers.
Haha that sounds like a plan, although using such a contraption would be sadistic. :P
evenpar123 wrote:But, as an aside, you ever think you'll give a step-by-step instruction piece on how to mod Saturn/DC twin sticks to connect to the 360? I do have a pair of Saturn sticks that have just been sitting in my closet collecting dust.
Haha, man, they're in progress... there are only so many hours in a day (especially when you're married, have a job and mortgage :shock: ). I just updated my DC Twin Sticks thread so check that out to see if it looks doable. The mod for Saturn Twin Sticks will be identical, except that instead of using connectors for the DC Twin Sticks, I will use connectors for Saturn Twin Sticks! If you don't care about ever reversing the mod, then skip the connectors altogether and solder the wires from the Saturn Twin Sticks directly to the Xbox 360 controller PCB.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Sixfortyfive »

I've had to put up with so many people on so many other forums saying that the game is "unplayable" without sticks that I'm going to be using the pad at least as much out of resentment as I do out of preference. Unless a cheap set of 360-compatible sticks somehow falls into my lap, that is, as I certainly have no intention of putting in the time and effort and money needed to acquire such a setup myself.

That Cacophanus fellow seems like a nice guy, but he's also a good example of somebody who seems so invested in playing a game a certain way that it actually makes me take him less serious, not more, even if I feel that many of his arguments are factually sound.

I'm relatively new to VO:OT, so I certainly don't know all of its tricks, but I can't see the few stick-only techniques that I do know of (e.g. rowing) making a big enough difference to matter to me. I'm also the sort of guy who takes a good d-pad over a fighting stick any day of the week. The only arcade games I play that I feel like I absolutely have to use arcade hardware for are DDR and its clones.

Some obstacles on the DC control scheme (rotation) are going to be made irrelevant on the 360 controller. The worst 1st party d-pad in history concerns me, but the jury's still out on that for VO:OT until I try it.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by RVR - 42 »

Sixfortyfive wrote:I've had to put up with so many people on so many other forums saying that the game is "unplayable" without sticks that I'm going to be using the pad at least as much out of resentment as I do out of preference.

And that Cacophanus fellow seems like a nice guy, but he's also a good example of somebody who seems so invested in playing a game a certain way that it actually makes me take him less serious, not more, even if I feel that many of his arguments are factually sound.

I'm relatively new to VO:OT, so I certainly don't know all of its tricks, but I can't see the few stick-only techniques that I do know of (e.g. rowing) making a big enough difference to matter to me. I'm also the sort of guy who takes a good d-pad over a fighting stick any day of the week. The only arcade games I play that I feel like I absolutely have to use arcade hardware for are DDR and its clones.

Some obstacles on the DC control scheme (rotation) are going to be made irrelevant on the 360 controller. The worst 1st party d-pad in history concerns me, but the jury's still out on that for VO:OT until I try it.
Hahaha! I like you, I like you alot. *super jumping high fives* But yea man...apparently the VOOT I have for DC isn't much for me to go one considering 5.66 is faster, and has a few revisions, I think. I gotta get my hands on this stuff. Still disappointed about no PSN release. =/ Sorry to repeatedly bring this up...it's just very unfortunate.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Sixfortyfive »

Well, about that, the problem is that "good d-pad" and "Xbox 360" don't really go together... I snapped up one of those SFIV-branded pads real quick, and while it's serviceable compared to the stock controller, there are enough things "off" with it to infuriate me... Whoever decided that the d-pad should rest so far above the contacts as to require very hard pushes to hit all of the diagonals consistently needs to be smacked around for a good long while. Not too keen on how large the damn thing is, either.

The fact that the Saturn pad remains the standard-bearer for digital control after 15 years speaks just as much of the ineptitude of modern hardware manufacturers as it does the strengths of the pad itself.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by NGEFreek »

This is pretty much the best one out as far as "modern" Saturn style usb pads
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/07827.html
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Sixfortyfive »

NGEFreek wrote:This is pretty much the best one out as far as "modern" Saturn style usb pads
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/07827.html
Of course it's the best; it's the same damn pad! I have one of those and the Playstation 2 version as well. Grabbed them as soon as they were released.

I sort of wish I had used the campaign inserts in some of those Sega Ages 2500 games I bought to get the collector's edition colors when I had the chance, as I'd be making a killing out of them on eBay now.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by NGEFreek »

I was somewhat out of the loop with gaming for a while (Having a child and no internet access for about a year will do that to you) but man, I look at the sega ages collections and I wish I had picked some up when they were released, some of them may be hard to track down now for something reasonable.

Inserts? Like controller skins or something different? This is the first I've heard of such a thing.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by Sixfortyfive »

NGEFreek wrote:Inserts? Like controller skins or something different? This is the first I've heard of such a thing.
The copy of Dragon Force PS2 I bought included some kind of insert/coupon for special edition gold and silver controllers. I know there was a limited edition released alongside some Darkstalkers compilation too. Not sure if any of these weren't available at retail at all or if this was just for a discount.
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by VR-Eli »

For me as a Dordray player, the ability to turn is crucial. I somehow made due with the weirdo E and F control schemes (whichever scheme where you hold down A to shift the stick into turning), but when I finally got twinsticks, I was able to control the drill and cd rushes much easier. Not to mention, I like to play Dordray a bit like Raiden, so being able to turn quickly and lay down a crouching Flamethrower is essential for catching people dashing around cover.

Having said all that though, I won't know how necessary twinsticks will be for me til I get my mitts on the game.

Btw, hey, found my way over here from gamefaqs :p
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Re: Twin Sticks vs. Control Pad!

Post by circuscommando »

VR-Eli wrote:For me as a Dordray player, the ability to turn is crucial. I somehow made due with the weirdo E and F control schemes (whichever scheme where you hold down A to shift the stick into turning), but when I finally got twinsticks, I was able to control the drill and cd rushes much easier. Not to mention, I like to play Dordray a bit like Raiden, so being able to turn quickly and lay down a crouching Flamethrower is essential for catching people dashing around cover.

Having said all that though, I won't know how necessary twinsticks will be for me til I get my mitts on the game.

Btw, hey, found my way over here from gamefaqs :p
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