Saturn or DC sticks?

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demosthenes
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Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by demosthenes »

What are the advantages and disadvantages to each one if you want to use it for VOOT?
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by circuscommando »

Quality: From what i've hear, the DC sticks are generally better quality, and will last longer, but i've also heard that fixing Saturn sticks is easier.

Response: both about the same(?)

Adaptability: Saturn sticks need the Total Control 3 adapter, or something like it, however this means you can play VOOT and OMG with the same sticks. Unfortunately, i've had a small amount of problems with the adapter personally, just things like the adapter not recognizing the control once in a while (it's not the switch) but works well otherwise.

Price: The Sat Sticks are also cheaper, but with total control 3, come out to be around the same price as DC sticks.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Long Shadow »

Another issue with the Total Control 3 is that it doesn't work at all with PAL Dreamcasts, unless a new revised version came out that I don't know about.

I use the Dream Connection 4in1 adapter by Skillz. Twin Stick support isn't advertised for this product, but it works. I haven't had any connection problems with it. Also, I believe the Dream Connection 4in1 is a bit more expensive then the Total Contol 3, if I remember correctly.

It's a 4in1 adapter, so you can use Saturn and PS controllers, PC keyboard and has a VMU slot. And for the keyboard, it okay for typing, but if you play games like quake3 that require multiple key pressed at once, it ain't that good, but it's okay for Typing of the Dead and those types of games.

Another note about DC vs Saturn Twin-Sticks, the Saturn Twin-Sticks don't have the big special button between the sticks. I think that button is for some kind of special move or something, but I never use that anyway.

What is that button used for?

Also, was that button only on the 5.4/5.45/5.66 version? I don't remember 5.2 having that button in the arcade.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Testament/Seven7 »

Long Shadow wrote:
Another note about DC vs Saturn Twin-Sticks, the Saturn Twin-Sticks don't have the big special button between the sticks. I think that button is for some kind of special move or something, but I never use that anyway.

What is that button used for?

Also, was that button only on the 5.4/5.45/5.66 version? I don't remember 5.2 having that button in the arcade.
That was the start button, but it also served for special moves during actual gameplay. Temjin's spinning slice attack, for example, required you to manually turn, then hit the center weapon *both triggers* and the start button *special button*. Other special moves utilized this button as well, and thanks to the placement of the start button on the saturn twinstick, this becomes awkward. The pause button is relocated to the converter itself.

The pause button on the Dreamcast twinstick is above the right stick.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by MentholMoose »

Every VO arcade control panel has a START button in between the sticks (OMG, VER.5.2, 5.4, 5.66, Force). The Saturn Twin Sticks don't have a START button, only PAUSE. The DC Twin Sticks have both START and PAUSE.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Long Shadow »

That's right, I remember the TC3 having a pause button on it. The Dream Connection 4in1 (DC4in1) doesn't have such a button on it. So basically, if you use the Satun sticks(with DC4in1) on DC VOOT, you can't pause, but you can use the special button, though a bit awkwardly.

I was using the DC sticks the other day (first time in a while) and I saw it said start for the big button, a was thinking, I though I remembered it saying special, not start. Damn memories suck at times.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Long Shadow »

MentholMoose wrote:Every VO arcade control panel has a START button in between the sticks (OMG, VER.5.2, 5.4, 5.66, Force). The Saturn Twin Sticks don't have a START button, only PAUSE. The DC Twin Sticks have both START and PAUSE.
Okay, then maybe the start button was used for special moves from 5.4 onwards?
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by MentholMoose »

Long Shadow wrote:
MentholMoose wrote:Every VO arcade control panel has a START button in between the sticks (OMG, VER.5.2, 5.4, 5.66, Force). The Saturn Twin Sticks don't have a START button, only PAUSE. The DC Twin Sticks have both START and PAUSE.
Okay, then maybe the start button was used for special moves from 5.4 onwards?
There were 'special' moves in VER.5.2.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Dreamcazman »

Guys, so in regards to modding a Saturn or DC twin sticks for 360 use, extra buttons would most likely have to be installed, but which one's are really needed, or are they all essential?

According to the button mapping that 60Hz guy put up on Gamefaqs, you'll need the back button for 'Special', you'll also need the 'Guide' button and the 'Start' button which should also pause the game in the XBLA version.

As far as I can tell, you'll need the three on the base of the stick, would any one of them perform the same function? (ie. Have the Start button also work for the 'Special' attack?) I'd like to minimize the amount of buttons if possible.
Last edited by Dreamcazman on 04 Apr 2009, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Testament/Seven7 »

Dreamcazman wrote:Guys, so in regards to modding a Saturn or DC twin sticks for 360 use, extra buttons would most likely have to be installed, but which one's are really needed, or are they all essential?

According to the button mapping that 60Hz guy put up on Gamefaqs (link below), you'll need the back button for 'Special', you'll also need the 'Guide' button and the 'Start' button which should also pause the game in the XBLA version.

As far as I can tell, you'll need the three on the base of the stick, would any one of them perform the same function? (ie. Have the Start button also work for the 'Special' attack?) I'd like to minimize the amount of buttons if possible.
Personally, I would avoid modding/hacking pieces of gaming history that cost $100 roughly apiece. I would go my route an build from scratch...re-using the sticks themselves however isn't entirely out of the question I guess...

I would also pick a better casing....but eh, to each their own after all...
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Long Shadow
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Long Shadow »

MentholMoose wrote:
Long Shadow wrote:
MentholMoose wrote:Every VO arcade control panel has a START button in between the sticks (OMG, VER.5.2, 5.4, 5.66, Force). The Saturn Twin Sticks don't have a START button, only PAUSE. The DC Twin Sticks have both START and PAUSE.
Okay, then maybe the start button was used for special moves from 5.4 onwards?
There were 'special' moves in VER.5.2.
Okay. I could have sworn that there was some difference regarding the start button between 5.45 & 5.2 on the DC. I seem to remember (back in the day) wanting to play in 5.2 mode sometimes with Saturn sticks because of that something to do with the start button. Specifically making it more fair to both players when playing cable vs mode with one DC using Saturn sticks and the other using the proper DC sticks.

Or, it could be that I just assumed something incorrectly back in the day. So from the sounds of it, that might be the case.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Dreamcazman »

Testament/Seven7 wrote:Personally, I would avoid modding/hacking pieces of gaming history that cost $100 roughly apiece. I would go my route an build from scratch...re-using the sticks themselves however isn't entirely out of the question I guess...

I would also pick a better casing....but eh, to each their own after all...
Don't get me wrong, I have the same mentality as most other video game collectors, in that I try at all costs to avoid permanently altering a rare piece of memorabilia. I also cringe when I see the results of a helpless stick/console/etc that's been hacked and ruined in the process.

That is why I'm planning on building a new custom 'base' and using a set of VO sticks. I will make it so it is totally reversible if the need every arose.

I just need to plan how many base buttons are needed and where to put them. ;)
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Testament/Seven7 »

In that case, what do you plan on basing placement off of?

For example, if you want the "special" button inbetween the sticks, do you want the arcade mesurments?

I actually have the mesurments of the distance between the 2 sticks, and the "start" button between them, which I used to build my custom.

If you want that, just ask ^^
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by MentholMoose »

Long Shadow wrote:Okay. I could have sworn that there was some difference regarding the start button between 5.45 & 5.2 on the DC. I seem to remember (back in the day) wanting to play in 5.2 mode sometimes with Saturn sticks because of that something to do with the start button. Specifically making it more fair to both players when playing cable vs mode with one DC using Saturn sticks and the other using the proper DC sticks.

Or, it could be that I just assumed something incorrectly back in the day. So from the sounds of it, that might be the case.
There may be some difference for certain characters, e.g. some special attacks may have been added or removed during the transition from VER.5.2 to VER.5.4/5.45. I don't recall how the Total Control 3 maps buttons... probably the PAUSE button on Saturn Twin Sticks is mapped to VOOT "START" (used for some special attacks). Since the Saturn Twin Sticks "PAUSE" button is in an awkward location, it may have been more difficult to use the special attacks.

Note however, that the TC3 was not the only Saturn to Dreamcast adapter. There was another one that supported Twin Sticks, but it actually mapped both "PAUSE" and "START" to the Saturn Twin Sticks "PAUSE" button. As you can imagine, this was totally messed up for most game modes, because any time you wanted to activate a special attack, you ended up also pausing the game! The only game mode that it worked in was CABLE VERSUS, because VOOT "PAUSE" is non-functional.
Dreamcazman wrote:Guys, so in regards to modding a Saturn or DC twin sticks for 360 use, extra buttons would most likely have to be installed, but which one's are really needed, or are they all essential?

According to the button mapping that 60Hz guy put up on Gamefaqs, you'll need the back button for 'Special', you'll also need the 'Guide' button and the 'Start' button which should also pause the game in the XBLA version.

As far as I can tell, you'll need the three on the base of the stick, would any one of them perform the same function? (ie. Have the Start button also work for the 'Special' attack?) I'd like to minimize the amount of buttons if possible.
You only need ONE button on the base for actual game play, that being the VOOT "START" button (it is used for special attacks). In VOOT on 360, "Back" is mapped to VOOT "START" by default.

The necessity of other buttons isn't entirely known, but you will probably also need the VOOT "PAUSE" button, which in VOOT on 360 is mapped to "Start" on the control pad. In DC VOOT, pausing was needed during training mode to change settings, and of course to pause the game if you wanted. Note that in CABLE VERSUS mode you were prohibited from pausing. Suffice it to say, the VOOT "PAUSE" button may be necessary in some instances, so the controller base should have two buttons. The DC Twin Sticks meet this requirement.

As for the Xbox 360 "Guide" button, it's use in VOOT on 360 is unknown. I just posted on the GameFAQs thread to ask 60Hz about it. I haven't wired that button on my modded DC Twin Sticks. In any case, you have some options. If VOOT "START" (mapped to 360 "Back" by default) never needs to be used in the same menu or at the same time as whatever function 360 "Guide" provides, you can probably wire both 360 "Back" and "Guide" to START on the DC Twin Sticks. I say probably because I assume the game can handle both buttons being pressed when you only need the one that has a currently available function. Like my above comment to Long Shadow, having two inputs mapped to one button could cause issues.

However, if it turns out that you really need a dedicated button for "Guide" (and thus really do need three base buttons), you will have to add a button somewhere. If this is the case, since I don't want to permanently mod anything, I will wire a small button and have it external somewhere (in the VMU slot, for example), maybe fastened by tape or something.
Testament/Seven7 wrote:I actually have the mesurments of the distance between the 2 sticks, and the "start" button between them, which I used to build my custom.
Which control panel are your measurements from? The different panels actually have different layouts. For example, the sticks on a VER.5.66 panel are further apart than a VER.5.2 versus city panel, which in turn has the sticks further apart than the DC Twin Sticks! Plus the DC Twin Sticks "START" button isn't even directly between the two sticks!!

Since I use Grys-Vok, and occasionally use the special (crouch + START), or at least want the option of using it, I don't like the sticks too far apart. So, I really like the VER.5.2 panel. Back at SHGL, the control panel was pure OMG, so it was pretty hard to activate the Grys-Vok special (the comparatively tall OMG sticks combined with the wide spacing made it difficult).
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Testament/Seven7 »

My mesurments are actually from a OMG machine, I took a tape mesure to a machine while it was running. I had the owners permission to do so.

Comfy enough for me anyway ^^
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Dreamcazman »

Testament/Seven7 wrote:In that case, what do you plan on basing placement off of?

For example, if you want the "special" button inbetween the sticks, do you want the arcade mesurments?

I actually have the mesurments of the distance between the 2 sticks, and the "start" button between them, which I used to build my custom.

If you want that, just ask ^^
I was just going to work off my DC sticks for measurement of the sticks, but have the 'Special' Back button right in between the two sticks, like the arcade. The other two (Guide & Start) were going to go in the top right corner above the right stick somewhere.

Either way, please post the measurements you have. I'm curious to see if they are the same/similar to my DC stick measurements.

@ Mentholmoose - I'm constructing a whole new base, so I can put buttons wherever I please. I might stick with three buttons just to be safe. It is however nice to just install what you need, to keep the aesthetics, which is why I asked about the buttons. :D
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Henshin01 »

Testament/Seven7 wrote:My mesurments are actually from a OMG machine, I took a tape mesure to a machine while it was running. I had the owners permission to do so.

Comfy enough for me anyway ^^
Ooooh cool. Can you please tell the measurements of the layout?
I was planning a prototype cabinet last night and just from guessing and positioning my arms how they used to be when I played... I guessed they were around 13 inches apart :P Was I far off? Although I did only ever play on a 5.66 machine.

On the VOOT 5.66 machine.. there was also a button called the "Assist" button. Located afew inches right of the Right Stick. I never really used it, but it used to make small tip captions appear at the bottom of the screen. I think it also affected the controls coz I remember someone pressing it whilst I was playing and I was unable to fire or something... or maybe I was just low on charge :P I wonder if the assist button will be in the 360 version?

And speaking of the start button.. I noticed how they were always placed differently on every setup I saw. But what I really wonder most is... how on earth do people ever press that thing? Since I'm an Angelan user.. whenever I try to use her special move (where she grows wings and gets a speed increase) I always had to dash behind a structure or something and hold the sticks in and try to use my pinky to hold the stick in and my thumb to press the button :P It was kinda awkward and usually took a good 3 seconds or so, just to press the button :P I dunno if im missing something there but I always found it unco. lolol. I didn't really use the special that much though seeing as it takes half of Angelan's remaining hit points. But I can only imagine how tough it would be for say a Temjin pilot to rotate the VR and press the button at the same time.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by MentholMoose »

Henshin01 wrote:On the VOOT 5.66 machine.. there was also a button called the "Assist" button. Located afew inches right of the Right Stick. I never really used it, but it used to make small tip captions appear at the bottom of the screen. I think it also affected the controls coz I remember someone pressing it whilst I was playing and I was unable to fire or something... or maybe I was just low on charge :P I wonder if the assist button will be in the 360 version?
Actually there is no "assist" button or anything similar. The button you are referring to is the "Quick Message" (QM) button, and it is used for displaying messages to your opponent. Messages are displayed by pressing the QM button plus an input (e.g. QM+LW is a certain message, QM+RW will be another, etc.). So if you are holding QM, you won't be able to do certain things because it will display a message instead. There are several pre-set messages, or you can create your own using the fabled Customize Disc to save on a VMU.
Henshin01 wrote:And speaking of the start button.. I noticed how they were always placed differently on every setup I saw. But what I really wonder most is... how on earth do people ever press that thing? Since I'm an Angelan user.. whenever I try to use her special move (where she grows wings and gets a speed increase) I always had to dash behind a structure or something and hold the sticks in and try to use my pinky to hold the stick in and my thumb to press the button :P It was kinda awkward and usually took a good 3 seconds or so, just to press the button :P I dunno if im missing something there but I always found it unco. lolol. I didn't really use the special that much though seeing as it takes half of Angelan's remaining hit points. But I can only imagine how tough it would be for say a Temjin pilot to rotate the VR and press the button at the same time.
Indeed it can be hard to use. Luckily the specials are mostly useless so it's not a big deal.
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by MentholMoose »

Here are my measurements for the VER.5.2 versus city panel:

Code: Select all

Panel layout:
| a |    b    | c |    d    | e |

Measurements:
a = e = 32mm
c = 24mm
b = d = 92mm

Calculations:
midpoint a to c = midpoint c to e = 120mm
midpoint a to e = 240mm
In case it's not clear, "a" and "e" are the holes for the sticks, "c" is the hole for START, and "b" and "d" is the space between the stick and START button holes. These measurements were done using a digital caliper on a bare panel (no buttons/sticks installed), and I rounded to the nearest mm (usually within about 0.05mm of the measurement value).
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Re: Saturn or DC sticks?

Post by Testament/Seven7 »

Here's the mesurments for the OMG panel.

From the center of the hole opening, 10 1/2 inches between the 2 sticks, the start button dead center between the two.
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