advanced techniques

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somepunk
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advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 05 May 2009, 15:21

Everyone here has a VR specialization, and each VR has an incredibly deep moves list, with useful cancels and setups, even combos to some degree, I think it's time we discussed them so we can all up are game, the newer players have something to practice, and we can begin more intense matches!

I'll start I suppose, I primarily pilot Raiden now. Here's a couple techniques I use for movement and pressuring.

1. CW laser cancel

During the opening frames when the CW dual lasers begin, instead of staying in place, try dashing in any direction right before they fire. If you get the timing just right, the lasers will go off and you will have free mobility to set up you next attack. Also if canceled a bit sooner, it can be used as a fake-out, and trick an opponent into a dash (or dash attack) giving an easy hit.

2. LW to RW

This is a great pressuring technique, and serves a defensive purpose as well. During the use of LW (g-bomb) begin using RW or RTRW, the following command will cancel the ending frames of LW, deploying both the bomb and the missiles almost simultaneously. The missiles can throw an opponent off balance and mask the ground bomb, and if the full combo lands, does great damage. And don't forget that the LW can block quite a few ranged techniques! :D

I don't know if there is a proper format to display these moves, I've seen multiple, but let me know if there is!
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Rav3nlock » 05 May 2009, 15:26

Another important Raiden move is being able to launch just a single laser beam. When doing any CW, hold one trigger and release the other. The released trigger's dish will shut off and you'll only fire one beam. Damage is the same as with a twin beam, and you recharge in significantly less time.

Do note, of course, that you have to pick and choose which trigger you release in order to actually hit your target. When not thinking, I've released the wrong trigger which goes into a wall or just skirts right by my opponent. But it's incredibly useful when you're sure of a hit and you want to keep the pressure on. I'd found that it's even a quick enough recharge to side dash and launch a burst from one side, and then it can be repeated in a second dash, at the very least.

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somepunk
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 05 May 2009, 15:29

It's often overlooked, even by me, I believe the technical term is selective fire, a few CW on other VR (such as Cypher's LTCW) can use it as well.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 05 May 2009, 15:33

So menthol, how bout some double napalm?
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Rav3nlock » 05 May 2009, 15:43

somepunk wrote:It's often overlooked, even by me, I believe the technical term is selective fire, a few CW on other VR (such as Cypher's LTCW) can use it as well.


I'd only ever seen it done with Raiden, but upon remembering its use my score attack score surged forth quite a bit.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 05 May 2009, 15:45

Basically any VR with a multi-shot CW. Grys/Stein-Vok being both great examples.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby RVR - 42 » 05 May 2009, 16:38

Heck yea...selective fire owns. I remember when I discovered that with Cypher. Was so like, "Whoa!". Pretty nifty trick. This isn't so much an advanced technique I guess but air dashing in between the apex of your jump. Can't remember exactly what it's called. Definitely comes in handy when playing as Cypher and trying to "swallow's tail" your opponent. Is that the correct term? I can never remember what it's called. XD!
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 05 May 2009, 16:43

So, to stay low to the ground? In fighters, I usually call it a short hop lol. Selective fire really isn't an AT though, it's just a feature that newcomers probably aren't aware of immediately, but is definitely important, as far as gauge management goes.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby RVR - 42 » 05 May 2009, 17:09

Short hop. Yea it kinda is, basically. But like air dashing while low to the ground, yea. But the swallow's tail or whatever...you know? The thing where you engage in CC without actually being close. *shrugs*
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby MentholMoose » 05 May 2009, 17:42

This post got huge, fast, so I'll add some formatting, so maybe some of it will get read! :lol:

Conventions

somepunk wrote:I don't know if there is a proper format to display these moves, I've seen multiple, but let me know if there is!

I try to follow something similar to these standards compiled by Scott R.:
http://auburnvo.org/content/faqs-txt/voinputschema.txt

Though for crouch I just use "c" instead of "Cr", and "j" instead of "J" for jump. Also I say "standing" to refer to the VR not moving (I could also write "stationary", but it is too long :lol: ).

Half-Cancel

somepunk wrote:I believe the technical term is selective fire, a few CW on other VR (such as Cypher's LTCW) can use it as well.

I've always called it "half-cancelling". This is critical for Grys-Vok usage. For most styles, various CW attacks are used heavily, and you can half-cancel things with interesting results. I'm so used to it, I do it without even thinking, mainly only noticeable if I use another VR... for any CW attack, I let go of the right trigger slightly before the left.

Half-cancelling some Grys-Vok CW attacks (most of the useful ones) actually has no effect other than reducing the gauge usage! So for example, doing it with cLTCW will result in the exact same missiles being launched, just with less gauge usage. You can actually throw out a ton of half-cancelled cLTCW in short succession by cancelling the delay time by rotating... so like cLTCW -> rotate slightly -> cLTCW -> rotate... etc. Doing it 10 times in a row is useless in a real match since you would never want to be stationary that long, but sometimes I'll do two in a row. cCW can work similar to this one.

In VER.5.4/5.45, you can even half-cancel jRTCW, so if timed correctly you can do it twice in a row. This was changed for VER.5.66. :cry:

Walking -> Crouch "Combo"

somepunk wrote:So menthol, how bout some double napalm?

Man, you just had to go and get me started, didn't you? Here's a sample video of some napalm technique:
http://www.oratan.com/videos/tech_0-napalm/

Double napalm is a staple of most Grys-Vok strategies. It is based on a standard "combo", if you want to call it that, that works with many VRs and attacks (for example, Bal can do double mines).

With Grys-Vok, double napalm is done by walking LW followed immediately by walking cLW. The result is obviously an LW followed by a cLW, but less obvious is that the gauge usage is only the LW! So the cLW is "free". With this combo, things get particularly interesting with Grys-Vok. You can do walking RW followed by three walking cCWs, with one of the cCWs being free. Without the combo you can only do two walking cCWs. This one is pretty useful in combination with other harassment attacks to get a few hits, like when you opponent is low on health and you just need a few more hits. So for example, I'll do a standing cRTLW, then jRTCW, then the triple walking cCW. It can be hard to avoid at least getting hit by something! :lol: Or at least, it's hard not to be distracted enough while I go in for the kill with some dashing cRW. :)

You can also do walking RW followed by cLW, and guess what? The gauge usage is only the RW, so you get a free cLW. This is known as 0-napalm. Obviously this would be a bit too useful, so it was toned down by the developers. You can only get the free cLW if the LW gauge is within a certain range (around 50-65%, but I don't know exactly since I go by the color... kind of purple-bluish :D ), and the timing is particularly strict. I'm unable to consistently do 0-napalm with a 100% success rate yet. Though I have my timing down, I can be engulfed in napalm for a long time. Combined with careful usage of obstacles and the lock on information (remember, with napalm you cannot see your opponent, only the lock on), this is pretty powerful in some cases. So it is something like, double-napalm -> 0-napalm -> double-napalm -> some other attack and/or reorientate to opponent -> 0-napalm -> double-napalm -> attack/reorientate -> 0-napalm -> double-napalm -> attack/reorientate -> etc.

Crouch chaining

For Grys-Vok, and probably some other VRs, some of these crouching attacks can be chained into others. For example, do a double-napalm or 0-napalm followed immediately by cCW once or twice, and while you are still slide-crouching from the walking cLW, you will throw out one or two cCW. You can also throw out cRW.

It works for other standard moves, e.g. just do a walking or standing cLW, then cRW. Or do a standing cLW, then cLTRW, or cLTLW. Or do standing cRW, then cLTRW. There are a lot of variations. :lol:

Animation frame cancelling

somepunk wrote:During the opening frames when the CW dual lasers begin

Another technique that can be useful in this situation (and of course others) is the instant lasers, which is a variation of the "weapon animation frame cancel" (I'm not sure of the official name). With Raiden, do an RW followed immediately by CW (or RTCW)... and I mean immediately, as in before the RW even comes out! The result is lasers that come out nearly instantly... basically you see the start of the RW animation, then lasers come out with almost no animation (or "instantly"). You can't half-cancel this (I guess you could try it, just press the CW and then release one of the triggers within 1/60th of a second :lol: ), and I'm not sure if you can dash out of it. Another Raiden variation that comes to mind is LW -> RW (or similar, maybe LW -> RTRW, or something).

This of course works with other VRs, and doesn't necessary have to be that fast. For example, with Grys-Vok you can do a standing RW followed by RTCW, and the RTCW will start sooner. Or you can do it with more basic attacks... with Grys-Vok, try standing LW -> CW, or standing RW -> CW. You can do this fast, and only have the latter attack come out, or do it slightly slower, and have both come out, with the first attack's animation eliminated. I do the slower LW -> CW occasionally as a round opens... it will actually stop Raiden's CW, in which case I might then be able to chase Raiden immediately without fear of lasers.

Freeze cancelling
This is not necessarily an advanced technique, but it can be in certain ways. If you're not cancelling all of your freezes, you better start now. Freeze cancelling is just doing certain attacks when your VR would otherwise be frozen, such as at the end of a dash or dash attack, or landing from a jump, then dash or walk out of it. Any quick attack will actually work, but as you know the duration of certain attacks is shorter than others, and thus you will normally want to use those quick attacks. This typically means cLT weapon variations.

How does this get advanced? Well, there is a variation with very strict timing. Basically I think it is semi-random, and probably requires nearly single frame precision. So, I can't tell you how to do it consistently, other than sometimes, occasionally, you will just feel it and pull off a difficult/dangerous variation. However, I have seen some videos of people who could do it with a high success rate. I've seen it to cancel the freeze after standing up from a knockdown. This variation is probably useless and just too hard to be worth learning. I'm not sure about it working for jump freeze cancelling. Where it is useful is with the dash freeze.

Okay, so what is it? I don't know what it's called, I'll just call it the "bugged freeze cancel", since it straight up looks like a bug. Basically, at the right time during the freeze, you do an attack, literally any attack, and it comes out "instantly", then followed by some kind of animation (for example, the animation that should have been shown before the attack coming out) or even another attack.

The most known and useful variation of this bugged variation is Raiden's V-Lasers. At the end of a dash, do a cCW. If you get the timing right, instead of Raiden going into the cCW animation, the lasers will come out immediately, usually in a V-shaped pattern instead of parallel, with one going straight as normal, and the other going straight towards the opponent, then followed by the cCW animation that "should" have come first. I've seen videos and replays of people who could apparently do this based on sound... they would do a forward dash cRW timed to have the gauge at a certain percentage such that the dashing cRW would be cut short and would have an audible "gauge empty" warning sound, then followed by the V-Lasers freeze cancel.

This bugged cancel works with every standing (stationary) attack. The ones with Grys-Vok are pretty cool and useful, but not "V-Laser cool". The cLTCW variation will end up being an instant standing LTCW followed by a regular cLTCW... so six missiles comes out instead of four... I see this variation regularly since I use the cLTCW a lot for freeze cancelling. The cRTCW variation is super-cool, too, and maybe my personal favorite... the result is the first pair of standing RTCW missiles come out instantly, then followed by a cRTCW (ICBM) that fails due to lack of gauge (I don't see this much because I normally would never do a cRTCW for freeze cancelling purposes). cRTLW is cool also, it will be an instant RTLW followed by a gauge-insufficient-cancelled cRTLW. Others are less dramatic... cRTRW will be one instant missile from standing RTRW, followed by a few cRTRW. I do see the cLTLW variation pretty often, but it's not dramatic... just a single instant standing LTLW "blue bullet" followed by a single cLTLW (only a single one since I will always dash or walk cancel it).
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby RVR - 42 » 05 May 2009, 18:10

XD! And here's the heavy artillery. :P Nice MM! Thanks!
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Gasaraki » 05 May 2009, 18:50

Can anyone give me tips on performing the CC->dash CC combo(Tsubame Gaeshi right?). I've pulled it once like once in training mode but I can't get it consistantly. Do I just have to be REALLY fast?

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Heiligekuh » 05 May 2009, 18:58

Running back to try the V-Laser right dammit now. Awesome.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby PingPong » 05 May 2009, 21:10

somepunk wrote:1. CW laser cancel

During the opening frames when the CW dual lasers begin, instead of staying in place, try dashing in any direction right before they fire. If you get the timing just right, the lasers will go off and you will have free mobility to set up you next attack. Also if canceled a bit sooner, it can be used as a fake-out, and trick an opponent into a dash (or dash attack) giving an easy hit.


i'd like to note that after about 10 minutes of testing that the timing for dash canceling a crouching CW laser is less strict than a regular standing CW laser.

edit- also forgot to mention that Raiden's LTCW cage/net/trap laser can also be dash canceled. same stuff applies like the CW laser where crouching version has a not as strict timing as the standing version.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Davo87 » 05 May 2009, 22:32

Anyone who successfully pulled off V laser from pad? I keep trying but just couldnt find the timing. Is the window more than 1 frame?

Also I had no idea RTCW or LTCW can be dash cancelled. Must try it out.

Also more tricks on angled cCW:

-60 degree : downright cCW
+60 degree : downleft cCW
+25 degree : right then downright cCW
-25 degree : left then downleft cCW

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 06 May 2009, 01:11

I've had the v-laser down for awhile, I don't really think about it, it just sorta comes out now. It provides instant mobility and a quick surprise attack upon landing, one of my favorites.

I love it's new name, too! I'd never heard it called that! haha

And thanks very much for the Grys-Vok ATs! I'm going to give him a second shot, he was my original VOOT main, I was just able to take Raiden further. Time for training!

Someone I've wanted to hear more on is Specineff. Scott got to teaching us a technique known as the super cancel, I have the guide he gave me here:

"As for the Specineff Super-Cancel, try the following:

RT+CrRW (poison shotgun) -> BT+CW[L]+Jump.

That is a crouching right-turbo center-weapon canceled into a Both-turbos
center-weapon selective-fired to the left and simultaneously jumping at the
exact moment you press that command.

That BT+CW[L]+J will cancel any move Specineff can do. Once you're good at it,
you can use it to machine-gun the RT+CrRW."

Specy players, stand up!
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby MentholMoose » 06 May 2009, 03:22

somepunk wrote:I've had the v-laser down for awhile, I don't really think about it, it just sorta comes out now. It provides instant mobility and a quick surprise attack upon landing, one of my favorites.

Any tips on doing it consistently? I was under the impression that it was really hard to do consistently.

somepunk wrote:Someone I've wanted to hear more on is Specineff. Scott got to teaching us a technique known as the super cancel, I have the guide he gave me here:

Ah, I forgot you had to had to half-cancel the BTCW for the super jump. No wonder it wasn't working when I was testing it the other day. :lol:

Specineff used to be my secondary VR, so I know there are a variety of other tricks, but mostly I've forgotten how to do them. For example, you can somehow get two hits from the forward dash cCW, and there is some other way to cancel the RTLW freeze. You can get a total of three cLW "balls" out... do the third one by doing a cLW when landing from a jump with the LW gauge at 35% or above.

Also, Specineff is one of the VRs with a fast movement trick that can be locked in (the VR moves so fast that it flickers)... it's something like, do a backward-diagonal moving crouch LW in the correct way to make the VR start flickering, then input crouch at the right time to lock in the fast movement. Coincidentally, Raiden also has a fast movement trick (I even saw one of the top ranked players do it a few times when I played him yesterday... annoying to see Raiden disappear to the opposite end of the map one second after you get knocked down :lol: ).
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somepunk
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby somepunk » 06 May 2009, 19:40

I basically just do it after a basic dash attack, it lets me actually dash attack without being punished! That gauge trick you mentioned is basically what I do, but you pretty much have to "feel" the timing, rinse and repeat until you get it down! It still doesn't come out every time for me, I'm having a great deal of trouble with the pad now, think it might be time to construct my sticks!
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby commonlogik » 09 May 2009, 05:09

somepunk wrote:2. LW to RW
This is a great pressuring technique, and serves a defensive purpose as well. During the use of LW (g-bomb) begin using RW or RTRW, the following command will cancel the ending frames of LW, deploying both the bomb and the missiles almost simultaneously. The missiles can throw an opponent off balance and mask the ground bomb, and if the full combo lands, does great damage. And don't forget that the LW can block quite a few ranged techniques! :D


What's interesting is Raiden isn't the only one with the ability to fire this way... I only discovered this by accident when playing Apharmd-S.

After some experimentation, all the Apharmds, Raiden, and Grys-Vok can fire off a Standing RTRW during a standing LW. It may have to do something with the nature of how LW weapons for these characters are "dropped" right in front and go forward. This also begs the question if there are other weapon combinations with characters that enable an almost simultaneous fire effect of two different weapons.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby MentholMoose » 09 May 2009, 22:33

commonlogik wrote:After some experimentation, all the Apharmds, Raiden, and Grys-Vok can fire off a Standing RTRW during a standing LW. It may have to do something with the nature of how LW weapons for these characters are "dropped" right in front and go forward.
I'm not sure what the actual reasoning is behind the design of this technique. At least with Grys, it works with both LW and RW, so I don't think it is the "dropping" of the first weapon.

commonlogik wrote:This also begs the question if there are other weapon combinations with characters that enable an almost simultaneous fire effect of two different weapons.
I'm sure there are!
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