advanced techniques

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PalmTreeFun
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby PalmTreeFun » 04 Sep 2011, 22:02

Quick question. What is a "shinku"? I'm trying to perform the Ajim's ABO hold, and I'm reading how to do it from an older forum post:

How to do it:
Down CC Attack (or RW > QS forward shinku) > LTCW > QS backward > LTCW > RTLW


He said that the method in parentheses makes the timing easier. It seems like all of Ajim's CC attacks knock the opponent too far to put a teleporter on them before they wake up, so I'm having trouble with the first method. I'd try the second one, but I have no idea what a shinku is and I don't know if he means CCRW or just regular RW.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neo helbeast » 04 Sep 2011, 22:37

It's just a QSCC they're talking about. You may be having trouble doing this though because of the game's version. They tweaked a ton of things in th switch to 5.66
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby PalmTreeFun » 04 Sep 2011, 23:02

neo helbeast wrote:It's just a QSCC they're talking about. You may be having trouble doing this though because of the game's version. They tweaked a ton of things in th switch to 5.66


As far as I know you can't QSCC forward, at least not in 5.45. Is that what changed in 5.66? Or is it something else?

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neo helbeast » 04 Sep 2011, 23:16

PalmTreeFun wrote:
neo helbeast wrote:It's just a QSCC they're talking about. You may be having trouble doing this though because of the game's version. They tweaked a ton of things in th switch to 5.66


As far as I know you can't QSCC forward, at least not in 5.45. Is that what changed in 5.66? Or is it something else?


I had assumed by "shinku" they were talking about a QS "strike" but it seems they could be talking about just a FWD dash RW (shinku can also mean crimson). Can you post where you are getting your info from?

e: It's also funny to see Something Awful members here. This place is like the exact opposite of GBS
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Schooly D » 05 Sep 2011, 01:04

"shinkuu" (vacuum) is when you land a CC hit by pushing the still-activated CC weapon into the enemy VR by means other than a CC attack. There are plenty of examples, but one with Cypher is:

(1) activate CC RW
(2) after it lands immediately do a forward QS (so you're pushing into the enemy VR)
(3) press Guard at the right time

I made a quick video (no sound) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZdO88B-bWY

If done correctly, Cypher will bring his launcher up in front of his face, which will run into the enemy and deliver a hit since the launcher is still active from the normal RW CC. It's the same idea for the shinkuu in Ajim's ABO Hold: activate a normal CC attack and move yourself such that the still-active weapon hits the enemy.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Zaarock » 05 Sep 2011, 13:01

Nice.

Schooly D:

Something I've always wondered about, how can you sometimes "delay" a combo CC attack(say, LW LW, not first) and have it come out seperately after you land from a jump? (in this case, cypher lands and stabs the opponent with his sword)

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby PalmTreeFun » 06 Sep 2011, 21:29

Schooly D wrote:"shinkuu" (vacuum) is when you land a CC hit by pushing the still-activated CC weapon into the enemy VR by means other than a CC attack. There are plenty of examples, but one with Cypher is:

(1) activate CC RW
(2) after it lands immediately do a forward QS (so you're pushing into the enemy VR)
(3) press Guard at the right time

I made a quick video (no sound) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZdO88B-bWY

If done correctly, Cypher will bring his launcher up in front of his face, which will run into the enemy and deliver a hit since the launcher is still active from the normal RW CC. It's the same idea for the shinkuu in Ajim's ABO Hold: activate a normal CC attack and move yourself such that the still-active weapon hits the enemy.


Awesome, thanks. :)

neo helbeast wrote:e: It's also funny to see Something Awful members here. This place is like the exact opposite of GBS


I mostly joined because I like this game and nobody else seemed to post what a shinku is so vOv.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Zanyuki » 17 Nov 2011, 19:48

Some of the techniques described below can be described in other names (and that you probably know all of this already), but since we were a pretty isolated group for a year we've mostly discovered these by ourselves. Take note that these were based from MSBS 5.2 so they may not be applicable in later versions.


1.) HOPPING
- Hopping is basically a super-low altitude dash to the side then canceling your dash with the use of a turbo button. Originally developed as an alternative to a jump cancel due to our sticks always having movement problems, hopping (when done right) is faster than a normal sidestep and can orient your VR to the enemy like a normal jump. However because it's done in super-low altitude, you'd descend to the ground as if you've done a jump cancel. Take note though that unless you input another command immediately after your touchdown, you'd suffer the same duration of freeze time as a normal descent from a non-canceled jump.


2.) CUTTING
- Cutting is a riskier and more aggressive version of the venerable Dash Vectoring principle. But whereas Dash Vectoring involves you making the most powerful dash attack during an opponent's freeze time after his own dash attack, "cutting" involves preventing that attack from being fired in the first place by "intercepting" the opponent's anticipated heading, thus cutting through his dash and attacking first. This is very risky as a Cutting Attack, when missed or mis-timed, gives your opponent a window of opportunity to attack you instead; you are practically committing yourself to a single shot that must not miss. In Manila, a Cutting Attack is usually performed by predicting the opponent's dash pattern and angle of attack and knowing when and where to perform your own. This takes a very experienced player to pull off as you'd need tremendous knowledge of the capabilities of your opponent's VR and its complete arsenal. Notable Cutting VRs include Cypher and Apharmd B. (this is loosely similar to Raiden or any VR with a straight beam weapon rotating to intercept an opponent's dash and make him collide with the beam.) Not only dashes can be intercepted, though. Temjin's Spinning Sword can be cut mid-way with a well-timed ground dashing CC.


3.) SHUKUCHI ("reduced earth")
- This one takes its name from the Japanese name "reduced earth" because it involves making minimal contact with the ground after a freeze time by totally canceling it. I've read somewhere before that Japanese players themselves have a name for it, but we do this by making a crouching Left Turbo attack + any weapon (depending on the VR's fastest) and canceling the attack before it's launched. Apharmd B's crouching LWRT is one of the prime examples of this technique, and some players can actually completely cancel the crLWRT before it even begins, giving them the illusion of a dash after a dash attack. Shukuchi, take note, does not work with dashing-CC or an aerial dash attack. Some VRs also have other means to do this, but they're usually fired and not canceled (like Raiden's crouching CW[L] or crouching CW[R] right after a dash attack), as doing this actually eliminates the startup animation of the said attack, which is called a "reduced attack" (shukusen). A shukusen crRWRT of Cypher, for example, eliminates the initial startup animation of the VR kneeling and pointing its weapon to fire a laser, but the laser actually erupts from him spontaneously, and its projectile speed is nearly instantaneous.


4.) BLIND ATTACK
- This one is more of an attack by "feel" or intuition. Done right, a blind attack involves cutting or attacking an opponent even without the need of a lock-on (or to be more precise, before a lock-on is achieved). Needless to say, a blind attack's window of input is extremely tight and can only be done by a very skilled player; too early and you'll just execute an attack straight to your current orientation, but too late and you'll just perform a normal cutting attack. Its advantages however include a quick follow-up to a blocked or avoided enemy attack (like the Surfing Ram) and that it's so fast and comes out so quickly that the enemy usually won't have time to evade or guard against it, or from an angle of attack that is totally unexpected. To master this (meaning so you can do it consistently), one must first be well-versed in Cutting. Special attacks also benefit from this, like Apharmd B's and Cypher's.


5.) QUICK DRAW
- "Quick Draw" is from the notion of drawing a sword from the scabbard in a very fast manner that the draw itself becomes a slash. This is done by quickly doing a guard-reversal CC once the energy gauges turn to yellow (double-lock). What differentiates this from a normal guard-reversal CC is that a Quick Draw is so fast the animation for a guard is completely removed and the VR simply slashes at the air in front of him, thus making a highly speedy move with the added bonus of reduced frames for the startup animation. A good gauge to see if you've performed a Quick Draw or a guard-reversal CC is to see if the guard motion appears in the replay or in slow motion. Like guard-reversals, a Quick Draw does not have the normal CC slide or tracking, but is used to attack an opponent quickly by surprise (which is great for cutting) or for setting up combos, as by nature guard-reversal CCs have low knockdown rates. Fei-Yen Knight, Apharmd B and Temjin benefit mostly from this.


That's it from the top of my head. If I can play again I'll let you know if there's anything I missed.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neoKEN » 27 Nov 2011, 14:22

Zanyuki wrote:That's it from the top of my head. If I can play again I'll let you know if there's anything I missed.


Very interesting. I would like to hear more.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Zaarock » 27 Nov 2011, 15:31

Zanyuki wrote:5.) QUICK DRAW[/b]
- ...


You can also do this by jump cancel to attack, right? Leaves a couple frames for the enemy to react (seeing the jump cancel) but still effective in practice I think. You guard immidiately after a jump cancel while normal guarding requires some time of holding the button.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neoKEN » 07 Jan 2012, 14:39

Zaarock wrote:
Zanyuki wrote:5.) QUICK DRAW[/b]
- ...


You can also do this by jump cancel to attack, right? Leaves a couple frames for the enemy to react (seeing the jump cancel) but still effective in practice I think. You guard immidiately after a jump cancel while normal guarding requires some time of holding the button.


It sounds like the technique we often refer to as "instant CC." I know Bal-bados can do an instant CC when timed with a double-lock. Though I think "quick draw" sounds much cooler :lol:

This is done by quickly doing a guard-reversal CC once the energy gauges turn to yellow (double-lock).
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby CRAZYDAZED » 14 Apr 2012, 10:48

Davo87 wrote:Specineff's True Turbo CW- It tracks like cRTCW and catches airborne opponents.


Based from translation from here: http://translate.livedoor.jp/amiweb/bro ... pair=2%2C1

LWゲージが27-34%の際に空中ダッシュからの着地しゃがみLW(空振りモーションのみ)中にRTCWを入力。
when LW gauge is 27-34%, landing しゃ from an air dash sees -- the inside of LW (only wide swing motion) -- RTCW -- an input.
通常よりも左上の位置から誘導開始の早いしゃがみターボ鎌が発生する。
a guidance start is earlier from an upper left position than usual -- it squats down and a turbo sickle is generated.
出る位置が高く誘導開始が早いので、相手は空中横ダッシュでも避けにくくなる。
Since the position out of which it comes is high and the guidance start is early, it becomes difficult for a partner to avoid an air horizontal da


I dont understand what it means by (only wide swing motion). Anyone could guess or understand with JP?


I found a replay with this technique so I captured the match and played it back frame by frame.

I uploaded the match to youtube so you can check it out. I have wrote what I think what happens in the description.

Specineff performs it at 1:05, 1:39, and 1:54 in the video.

Angelan's Point of View:


Specineff's Point of View:


Here is an explanation from youtube's description:
This showcases Specineff's True Turbo CW. Normally, when Specineff does crouching Right Turbo Center Weapon (cRTCW) the projectile will travel low along the ground. It has very good horizontal tracking ability but it is easy to evade cRTCW by jumping over it. However, by performing True Turbo CW, cRTCW's projectile will actually start way up in the air instead of low on the ground and therefore making it more difficult to evade.

The set up for it is very specific. The Left Weapon's gauge has to be between 27-34%. First perform a quick air dash, land, perform crouching LW, then immediately perform cRTCW. What happens is for some reason if Specineff lands from air dash, he can do cLW's animation but no actual attack comes out. He can cancel cLW's animation with cRTCW. The game thinks Specineff's shooting LW but instead cRTCW's weapon comes out from LW's position!

Very awesome!


EDIT: Here is a link to an album of frame-by-frame screenshots. You can see he lands his air dash, perform an empty cLW, then cRTCW suddenly appears out of nowhere.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby MentholMoose » 14 Apr 2012, 12:21

Very nice, thanks for the analysis.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Zanyuki » 25 Apr 2012, 00:51

neoKEN wrote:
Zaarock wrote:
Zanyuki wrote:5.) QUICK DRAW[/b]
- ...


You can also do this by jump cancel to attack, right? Leaves a couple frames for the enemy to react (seeing the jump cancel) but still effective in practice I think. You guard immidiately after a jump cancel while normal guarding requires some time of holding the button.


It sounds like the technique we often refer to as "instant CC." I know Bal-bados can do an instant CC when timed with a double-lock. Though I think "quick draw" sounds much cooler :lol:

This is done by quickly doing a guard-reversal CC once the energy gauges turn to yellow (double-lock).


I've been a little rusty but doing jump cancel, IIRC, adds several extra animations to pull off an instant hit using a quick-draw method. Also it's riskier in that you may inadvertently perform a crouching CC attack instead of a quick-draw. That or I may have misunderstood your post, sorry. :lol:

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neoKEN » 11 Jan 2013, 02:39

Playing around with Cypher in training mode today. Cypher can combine 2 instant CC into 1 combo. The first hit is so fast and unexpected that the opponent will have no time to react to the 2nd hit.

whiff RW -> LWCC -> j.diagonal fwd dash -> cancel dash -> whiff RW -> LWCC (or CWCC)

The CWCC is a better finisher since it does more damage and has a wider CC lockon.

This is a very cool looking combo and even more awesome if you finish the opponent off with it. The combo is so quick that first hit, dash, and finisher will show in the replay!

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VOOM Temjin "Standing Big Four"

Postby VMS » 02 Mar 2013, 20:13

edited for move conditions & added replay video:

OK, I need to speak with a real VOOM Temjin expert, because I can't find any info on this move in a FAQ, movelist or anywhere.

Everyone knows about the "Rising Big Four" - the side-dash-shot while rising from a knockdown, with 4 big shots instead of the standard 4 small shots.

But there is also a "Standing Big Four" that can be done without getting knocked down. I've only seen it once since playing VOOM again on JP PSN, and I've also pulled it off once myself, totally by accident. Not sure how it happened, but it seems to be related to quickly canceling out of a CC lock-on, just (1 frame?) after achieving lock-on (???)

Quick replay video here:
http://vine.co/v/bHzKYVvFFYi

I saw an old post that mentioned it's done with "very fast sword canceling", but I can do zero-frame sword cancels with no results, so I'm totally lost. Please help!

Can't believe there are still unknowns about a game this old. Can you imagine if there was a move in Street Fighter that someone, somewhere, maybe saw once? Maybe I'm just ill-informed, and everyone knows about this.

Thanks!
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Porcupine » 03 Mar 2013, 22:27

It's been ages for me but this was a pretty basic technique in VOOM, not some unknown. As others told you, to get it you have to do a CW weapon cancel (do standing CW, then cancel into a side dash instantly, without waiting for the CW shot to appear) and furthermore you have to do it with perfect frame precision, either canceling into the dash in exactly zero or one frames after pressing CW. I felt it was zero frames.

However, I believe that for Temjin, an additional requirement is that he has to do it while in CC range. Which is a major limitation.

Apharmd however can do it at any distance because his standing CW, even outside of CC range, still slides forward like a CC attack, and this seems to be a key underlying mechanic for this particular glitch. Being able to do this technique well benefits anyone's Apharmd tremendously.

Another related technique Apharmd players could benefit from was the Gamera Dash. I used to do a ton of Gamera Dashes back when I played VOOM. It has the same difficult restrictions as the Big Four or Apharmd's version of it, to get it you had to cancel perfectly in zero frames. Except Gamera Dash was for diagonal dash instead of side dash. And also, I can't remember, but the opponent might have needed to be positioned very diagonal to you as well.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby VMS » 04 Mar 2013, 00:20

I thank you for your help.

For something that was basic & known, there's no info anywhere out there on this move. Just stories & word of mouth, such as "a guy in Hong Kong could pull it off".

I've tried replicating this hundreds of times in exactly the way you describe, with no luck. I can zero & 1-frame cancel consistently.

Another friend thought it had to do with using both dash buttons at once (limiting it to twinsticks) but I highly doubt that.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Porcupine » 04 Mar 2013, 12:32

Hehe it was no where near as rare as that. Anyways yup that's just how the Internet goes. Information that is old tends to get lost forever, even if it was once plentiful. Especially when the information was originally mostly located on forums (which got erased) or sites that went down.

In general I am quite dissatisfied with the quality of communications and FAQ writing and research with the competitive gaming community nowdays. In 10 more years we will feel the pain as absolutely no information will remain on any of the fighting games popular today. For the most part the discussions and explanations still exist, but these days they are located more and more on forums or dedicated websites, which don't last forever.

You only need one dash button and one stick (or keypad). Furthermore, the timing of when to push the dash button is irrelevant, so you can push it well before you press CW or a direction, if you like. Focus on pressing CW and the direction at the exact same time.

If you are playing on a 30 fps version of the game (Saturn version or default PC version) then the standing Big Four becomes semi-impossible. I have not played the 360 version yet myself so I can't confirm that it completely works in it, but I expect it should.

Remember that Temjin needs to be in CC range to do a standing Big Four. Only Apharmd can do it at any distance. I would practice with Apharmd.

I have one last major point to make. Something you said has been bothering me. How can you assert that you can zero and 1-frame cancel consistently? How do you know when you truly canceled your standing CW in zero or 1-frames? The only way I know of to test this is through demonstrating your success rate at doing a standing Big Four. And as you say your success rate is nil, I would then say that your ability to cancel CW in zero or 1-frames is also nil.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby VMS » 04 Mar 2013, 17:47

Thank you for this info, Porcupine! You are 100% correct about the method.

When I said "zero" & "one-frame", please understand I meant actually seeing zero or one frame of sword animation before dashing. But it turns out there are frames even before that to account for. This is the timing I was struggling with.

What helped me nail it down was finding a slow-motion option in the training mode menu (all in Japanese) and turning that on. Then normal speed became easier, too.

I echo your sentiments of recording this type of knowledge. Then again, I'm not about to go write a FAQ about it. Compound that with the low number of VO players, and it can get frustrating. So again, thank you. I'll post a video soon.
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