advanced techniques

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friction
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby friction » 23 Jul 2009, 13:40

the watari dash thing is interesting... like a lot of what Watari came up with, it seemed like sort of an experiment. it definitely broke some of the "purity" of VO:OM, especially with the drastic changes of direction, like 90 or 135 degrees.

and with curve dashing in the mix too, it's very confusing. Watari dashing changes your direction AND the type of attack you fire (if you turn your side dash into a forward dash, you get a forward-dash attack), while Curve dashing only changes your direction but doesn't change the type of attack.

combine that with the variety of dash attacks and it gets kind of nuts.

the variation between dash attack types was always a little odd (why does Temjin fire 2 big shots forward, and a bunch of little ones sideways?) but in VO:OM it was clearly to promote aggressive play: take the risk and dash forward, for a much bigger payoff.

in VO:OT, though, you can side-dash for evasion and then quickly turn forward for your full strength attack... which sort of brings into question why the attacks are different in the first place, if you think about it.

anyway, the Watari dashing is definitely fun. the zig zag from left fwd-diag, to right, to forward (and its mirror) is a classic... that's a 135-degree turn and then 90 degrees back.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neoKEN » 23 Jul 2009, 14:31

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7678390

Apharmd B advance tutorial video. Unfortunately it is in Japanese so I don't know what they are talking about.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neoKEN » 23 Jul 2009, 14:39

MentholMoose wrote:Nice diagram, and interesting information. I wonder what the reasoning is behind this, any thoughts?


Forward dashing attacks are incredibly powerful. Perhaps they want the players to commit more to the dash than dash forward then back to force the opponent to move from the initial forward dash.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Sixfortyfive » 23 Jul 2009, 16:40

Here's something mindblowing. Several attacks have different damage values in the underwater stage. This applies to all VRs, not just Bal-Baros. Check out this damage table for Temjin:

http://oratanners.hp.infoseek.co.jp/tem.html

Blue values are attacks that are weaker in water than on land. Red values are attacks that are stronger in water. I haven't verified everything on the chart, but this aspect does hold true.

Also, it seems that all attacks gradually increase in strength as the match drags on. There's a base damage value that is used for the first 30 seconds, and then damage begins to gradually increase for the following 30 seconds, stopping at 1.1x its original value.

EDIT: There's one thing about this chart that's bugging me. It says that a direct hit with any of Temjin's LW variants adds an extra 1.5% damage on top of the normal blast radius damage, but from some quick testing on my end, his LW always causes the same amount of damage whether the bomb itself hits the opponent or the explosion just grazes him. Can anybody shed some light on this?

This information does seem to be specific to v5.45, so I'm wondering if that is the cause of the discrepancy. There also seem to be minor typos in that chart, but I'm not particularly concerned about those right now.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Kyper » 23 Jul 2009, 20:06

I remember someone posting this about the damage model courtesy of Scott Robinson:
http://auburnvo.org/content/applied-vo/m102-rp.html

neoKEN wrote:http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7678390

Apharmd B advance tutorial video. Unfortunately it is in Japanese so I don't know what they are talking about.


Thanks for posting this! I've taken some time to dissect the video based on the demonstrations, I can't read japanese but I think I'm getting an idea of what is trying to be shown. Going from beginning to end, here's what I can get out of it:

1. cLTLW -> QS dash cancel -> dash CC
Like cLTCW, you can dash immediately after cLTLW if you input your dash like a quick step. cLTLW staggers the more stable VRs a fair amount, so it's a good weapon to set up dash CC. If you do it within CC range, I think you'll have to dash again in order to cancel the quick step (sometimes it dashes right away, can't tell for sure).

2. air dash forward LW -> crouch to fall faster -> cLTLW -> QS dash cancel into dash CC
Can't tell for sure if this is specific to lighter VRs or not. I think it's supposed to be a combo setup into dash CC. Shortly after the air dash LW, I think you have to descend to the ground, and as you touch the ground you do a cLTLW homing tornado and then QS dash cancel into dash CC. There's probably some special input in between LW and cLTLW...

3. dash cCW -> wait for jump -> RTLW soccerbomb
Seems to be a setup against the hopping mad Cypher. After hitting with the dash cCW stun tornado, Cypher will break free and probably want to jump right after, maybe instinctively. So you can use RTLW to smack her in the air. Can't wait to use this one!

4. CC attack -> cancel into cCW/cLW
I guess if you have the reflexes to see someone guarding, you cancel the CC attack into a crouch attack. I feel there might be something more to it though...

5. CC LW -> jump cancel -> CC LW
Looks like a huge combo against the more stable VRs. I would assume it can't be guarded or interrupted in between.

6. (after being knocked down) cCW stun tornado -> CC CW
It looks like a setup where you take advantage of the invincibility after being knocked down. While in this state, get into position to use a stun tornado, and then tongfer like mad (maybe CC RTCW if you expect a jump).

7. (after a knockdown) QS dash back x2 -> LTLW???
I have no idea if it's talking about a CC maneuver or the setup on wakeup. If it's the set up on wakeup, after scoring a knockdown and getting the grounded damage (I prefer CW, RTCW gives style points but you have to be quick to guard cancel), you QS back twice and then fire LTLW. This is intended to disrupt the opponent's vision and give you the initiative. I usually do something else after getting the grounded hit, QS left/right, wait, and then LTLW.

That's my best guess. I hope someone can translate it so I can see how wrong I am!

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby anikingVOOT » 23 Jul 2009, 20:23

Kyper wrote:7. (after a knockdown) QS dash back x2 -> LTLW???
I have no idea if it's talking about a CC maneuver or the setup on wakeup. If it's the set up on wakeup, after scoring a knockdown and getting the grounded damage (I prefer CW, RTCW gives style points but you have to be quick to guard cancel), you QS back twice and then fire LTLW. This is intended to disrupt the opponent's vision and give you the initiative. I usually do something else after getting the grounded hit, QS left/right, wait, and then LTLW.

That's my best guess. I hope someone can translate it so I can see how wrong I am!

He is talking about that make your CC hit when your opponent finished his(her) Quick Step Attack.
After the knock down is not the main thing he want to tell you.
And he is not reccomending to do this according to his comment. He just telling you that there is a chance to make the CC hit.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Sixfortyfive » 23 Jul 2009, 20:44

Kyper wrote:I remember someone posting this about the damage model courtesy of Scott Robinson:
http://auburnvo.org/content/applied-vo/m102-rp.html

1) Scott uses a lot of words to say simple things! :lol:
2) He's not entirely correct. Some weapons ARE different in the underwater stage. Try it yourself! Pick Temjin vs Temjin in practice, and open the match with RTRW on the underwater stage. The damage will be different than its value on any other stage.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby ThomasMak0524 » 24 Jul 2009, 07:42

One time I saw a replay. Temjin double jump then surfing ram, after the surfing ram hit the edge of the stage, he did a double jump again and dash away without touching the ground. Anyone knows how to do that? Is this an advanced technique or what?

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby anikingVOOT » 24 Jul 2009, 12:11

ThomasMak0524 wrote:One time I saw a replay. Temjin double jump then surfing ram, after the surfing ram hit the edge of the stage, he did a double jump again and dash away without touching the ground. Anyone knows how to do that? Is this an advanced technique or what?

In Japan, its called "NAGOYA INPUT JUMP" its because the technique was found at Nagoya city.
After Temjin's surfing ram (or Blue Slider) and Dordorays Air FW dash LW and CW (Drill attack and CD attack), there is a moment you can jump. Simply try Jump when the attach is ended. Some people can do it with 100% success. I could do wit Dordray at training mode and my success ratio is about 10% or less. :|
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby MentholMoose » 24 Jul 2009, 13:27

I heard about this before from Torin (not a forum member). He saw people using this in Japan as a means of avoidance (i.e. playing chicken). :P
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Sixfortyfive » 24 Jul 2009, 16:54

There seems to be a brief period that allows additional jumps after some aerial actions. I'm trying to get the hang of Ajim's infinite upward teleport thing (just for fun, really), but the timing seems really strict and I keep messing it up.

I'm wondering if I can just keep jumping up into the sky forever. :lol:

EDIT: While I'm at it, what exactly is the ABO Hold? I know it involves using the teleport cages to trap the opponent, but I'm not sure how to do it.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby ThomasMak0524 » 24 Jul 2009, 21:20

anikingVOOT wrote:
ThomasMak0524 wrote:One time I saw a replay. Temjin double jump then surfing ram, after the surfing ram hit the edge of the stage, he did a double jump again and dash away without touching the ground. Anyone knows how to do that? Is this an advanced technique or what?

In Japan, its called "NAGOYA INPUT JUMP" its because the technique was found at Nagoya city.
After Temjin's surfing ram (or Blue Slider) and Dordorays Air FW dash LW and CW (Drill attack and CD attack), there is a moment you can jump. Simply try Jump when the attach is ended. Some people can do it with 100% success. I could do wit Dordray at training mode and my success ratio is about 10% or less. :|


100% success... There maybe some trick we don't know or that guy is a terminator. I've tried around 20 times in training and I pulled it off once. How can people pull that off few times in a match during online battle? Unbelievable.

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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neo helbeast » 27 Jul 2009, 18:23

Perhaps someone can help me this. I saw a Dordray player use a move similar to Temjin's spinning sword melee (multiple rotations one). For the life of me I can not recreate this move. Anybody know how to do it? Also BARREL ROLL :!:
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Spiff » 27 Jul 2009, 19:16

neo helbeast wrote:Perhaps someone can help me this. I saw a Dordray player use a move similar to Temjin's spinning sword melee (multiple rotations one). For the life of me I can not recreate this move. Anybody know how to do it? Also BARREL ROLL :!:

Crazy melee spin like Dorkas's spinning hammer in OMG?

Rotate + standing CW I think.

In which case it should act just like Temjin's sword tornado in the fact that if you rotate the other direction Dordray will spin the other way.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neo helbeast » 28 Jul 2009, 16:59

Spiff wrote:
neo helbeast wrote:Perhaps someone can help me this. I saw a Dordray player use a move similar to Temjin's spinning sword melee (multiple rotations one). For the life of me I can not recreate this move. Anybody know how to do it? Also BARREL ROLL :!:

Crazy melee spin like Dorkas's spinning hammer in OMG?

Rotate + standing CW I think.

In which case it should act just like Temjin's sword tornado in the fact that if you rotate the other direction Dordray will spin the other way.


Which stick do i rotate? I've only done Temjin's special once and I don't remember how I did it, I was sma shing buttons against a friend who knew what he was doing. I unlike him do not use Temjim, I use a "contruction worker" although I have no idea why you would need a drill that big. :D
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby MentholMoose » 28 Jul 2009, 19:34

neo helbeast wrote:
Spiff wrote:
neo helbeast wrote:Perhaps someone can help me this. I saw a Dordray player use a move similar to Temjin's spinning sword melee (multiple rotations one). For the life of me I can not recreate this move. Anybody know how to do it? Also BARREL ROLL :!:

Crazy melee spin like Dorkas's spinning hammer in OMG?

Rotate + standing CW I think.

In which case it should act just like Temjin's sword tornado in the fact that if you rotate the other direction Dordray will spin the other way.


Which stick do i rotate? I've only done Temjin's special once and I don't remember how I did it, I was sma shing buttons against a friend who knew what he was doing. I unlike him do not use Temjim, I use a "contruction worker" although I have no idea why you would need a drill that big. :D

You rotate the VR, not one of the sticks. How you rotate depends on your control scheme (for Standard you press the right stick left or right).
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Spiff » 28 Jul 2009, 20:40

MentholMoose wrote:
neo helbeast wrote:
Spiff wrote:
neo helbeast wrote:Perhaps someone can help me this. I saw a Dordray player use a move similar to Temjin's spinning sword melee (multiple rotations one). For the life of me I can not recreate this move. Anybody know how to do it? Also BARREL ROLL :!:

Crazy melee spin like Dorkas's spinning hammer in OMG?

Rotate + standing CW I think.

In which case it should act just like Temjin's sword tornado in the fact that if you rotate the other direction Dordray will spin the other way.


Which stick do i rotate? I've only done Temjin's special once and I don't remember how I did it, I was sma shing buttons against a friend who knew what he was doing. I unlike him do not use Temjim, I use a "contruction worker" although I have no idea why you would need a drill that big. :D

You rotate the VR, not one of the sticks. How you rotate depends on your control scheme (for Standard you press the right stick left or right).


Right, so if you're using twin sticks, which you seem to be. It'd be left stick up + right stick down + CW, or placing the sticks in opposite positions.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby neo helbeast » 29 Jul 2009, 13:10

I made my post slightly confusing. I infact use a controller not twinsticks with default settings.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Alaric14 » 07 Aug 2009, 06:29

Zaarock wrote:Apparently cypher can do the speed boosting effect of CW when forward or back air dashing without shooting the projectile and using ammo... anyone know how to do this? I get it randomly in matches sometimes and cant seem to reproduce it in training mode. Also, I once somehow glitched the speed boost thing without firing so that cypher got double the speed gain, and flew off really fast.


Nobody seems to have answered this one. And it's my first post on the forums! Here goes:

As a Cypher pilot, this technique has proven invaluable, as you can easily cover one end of the combat zone to another and outrun some of the heavier VRs trying to pin you for massive damage (advanced Raiden players can and will attempt to do this). As well as that, this evasive maneouvre can avoid the more irritating homing attacks (Fei-Yen's LTCW and Temjin's sword-surfing move) and give you time to prepare an almost inevitable commitment from your enemy. Once they see you've moved away with a jump, the majority of players (especially if you've been chipping away at their health) will follow to try and catch you at the freeze point. You, of course, will be out of reach, and possibly behind cover.

After executing a CW attack and the guage is still charging below 35-40%, execute a double jump air-dash combo, with the second attack as your CW. The timing is lenient to a point. You shouldn't fire off the 'silent' CW too quickly, but just after the first attack. You do it right, wave goodbye to your opponent as you shoot across the combat zone. Hopefully your first attack would have hit, irritating them enough to chase you. Wait for them a split-second to commit, then fly in again with the attack of your choice (which is best depends on the enemy VR).

OTHER CYPHER TECHNIQUES

Freeze point laser blasting (immediately after landing a jump, crouch with RTRW) is a great way to catch a medium distance charging Temjin, Arpharmed, or Fei-Yen pilot trying to catch you at the freeze point. Another benefit is that is eliminates a lot of enemy projectiles, so even if you miss the VR you'll probably avoid taking damage. Trial and error against different VRs is crucial, but it's surprisingly effective against Grys-Vok and heavier models.

'Melee drops' are where Cypher really excells against medium to heavier VRs, especially Arphamed pilots who aren't used to VRs fighting back at close range. You can even use the same freeze point technique listed above for a quick swipe followed up by another. Crouching LW or RW at close range will avoid an initial standing melee from a lot of VRs who are quick enough, while crCW will knock any one of them down, but that's a slower attack and will not avoid a counter. A few words of caution: do NOT try melee drops on Dordray pilots who know what they're doing (and you will be able to tell; if your Cypher's health is being constantly depleted by one of those clunky things, chances are the pilot knows how to handle one). Dordray will grab you by the neck and make you pay dearly for it. Fei-Yen is too fast 90% of the time, so avoid melee drops on it if at all possible. If you execute the technique, but then the enemy disappears, JUMP-DASH just before your attack is finished. Cypher will avoid any nasty surprises and you'll be able to launch a counter attack from the air, where Cypher's at home.

I'll add a few more techniques at a later date, but I'm interested in what other pilots have to say about these.
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Re: advanced techniques

Postby Quad » 13 Aug 2009, 16:01

"Authoritative" statement:

Damage values between VRs vary on both stage, time and opposing VR.

Undersea Plant vs. all other stages. The general rule you can apply is that explosive vs. beam type weapons have flipped effectiveness. Oddly, this is amplified the other direction in the space mode found in Tangram's stage. But, since space combat modes were removed before VO was finally released, this is just academic.

Wrt. time, the game gives a damage bonus in opening of the game. This seems designed to encourage aggressive gameplay.

The opposing VR matchups have been documented almost too extensively. I won't add to it.

Finally, V.Armor calculations are varied depending on your "escape" timer. As your escape timer grows, a multiplier is applied decreasing your effective V.Armour quantity.
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