Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Discuss the Virtual-On series.
Akuma_from_Germany
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Akuma_from_Germany » 02 Apr 2010, 07:51

Can someone please give me any tips how to go against Tangram?

I especially suck on the jap. DC (couldn't beat him yet due to time limit / not enough damage) and 5.56 arcade version (only beaten with the heavier damaging guys like the VOK Reihe).

Thanks! : )
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby MentholMoose » 02 Apr 2010, 09:03

Akuma_from_Germany wrote:Can someone please give me any tips how to go against Tangram?

I especially suck on the jap. DC (couldn't beat him yet due to time limit / not enough damage) and 5.56 arcade version (only beaten with the heavier damaging guys like the VOK Reihe).

Thanks! : )

Is there a particular VR you're having trouble with?
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Akuma_from_Germany » 02 Apr 2010, 12:21

Yeah well on DC with every VR. Arcadewise, Temjin or Cypher are not doing enough damage for example
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby MentholMoose » 02 Apr 2010, 12:30

Akuma_from_Germany wrote:Yeah well on DC with every VR. Arcadewise, Temjin or Cypher are not doing enough damage for example

I'm not much of an expert on any VR except Grys-Vok so I'll let other people chip in some suggestions.

One thing you can do is search Youtube for play-throughs. I believe some people have uploaded videos of it, which should be useful to get some ideas. For example, here's one from forum member Cacophanus:
Virtual On Oratorio Tangram - Playthrough (Special Ending)
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Zaarock » 02 Apr 2010, 13:01

If I remember right, with cypher laser(RTRW) spamming tangram when the eye is open does a lot of damage, so you can mainly kill it using that.

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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby khl » 02 Apr 2010, 22:25

Akuma_from_Germany wrote:Yeah well on DC with every VR. Arcadewise, Temjin or Cypher are not doing enough damage for example


Temjin: Make sure you're at medium range when the armor pops off. Start with RTRW. Walk to the side and spam RW. You shouldn't get hit by the spread fire if you keep walking. RTRW again when it stops shooting. Dash if you need to avoid the big laser, but otherwise, walk to the side and spam RW. Repeat until dead.
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Fei Yuki » 08 Jul 2010, 00:02

To add onto the Cypher tactics, his four way CW (I forgot execution buttons, but they can be done by couching/jumping/dashing sideways + CW). As mentioned, RTRW (Revenant Shot?) is a good damage move as well as RTCW. Forget LW, they suck.

For other VRs...

For Fei Yen Kn, pretty much 3 staple moves that can deal the most dmg to Tangram:
RTLW (drawing heart), RTCW (knockdown heart) and RTRW (multiple RW shots).

Or a truly lazy tactic is to auto initiate Hyper Mode, "row" and hold down the LW button.

For Angelan: LTLW (ice flakes), RTCW (double dragons), LTRW (laser)
I've noticed that when you fire off a double dragon AND get other shots in before the dragons hit Tangram, they (the dragons) tend to do less damage than they usually do. So either use ice flakes and lasers, and fire the dbl dragons last. Time it so that the dragons hit before Tangram shoots the solar cannon.

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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby guarayakha » 08 Jul 2010, 08:25

Temjin- Spam RTRW, move sideways+ normal RW shots. RTLW when RW gauge is empty, repeat. If you want, Forward Dash CW with all gauge full for a surfing ram finish.

GrysVok- RTRW, Sidedash-watari forward+ CW for ICBMs. I believe sidedashing RW also deals quite the damage. Press the special button to launch the giant ICBM (rarely hits, but it's hilarious to see it flying around).

Bal Series- Jump Cw, Crouch CW. LTCW. Just remember to evade Tangram's attack while doing those.

Raiden- RTCW(selective) Half lasers, RTRW, RTLW does awesome damage.

Angelan- Just as FeiYuki said, fire the LTRW only after your DoubleDragons hit, or else the laser hit will nullify the dragon's damage.

Specineff- RTCW, RTRW. Elf Fire (Tap Turn Left/Right + LW)

Striker- Not to familiar with this guy, but most of it are RT attacks.

Battler- Upclose and personal Close Range CW tongfer smash after Tangram open her eyes and fired the spread lasers. Be sure to run sideways when she turns blue. Get a few more hits in before she closes up.

Dordray- RTCW, RTRW, RTLW. The CD/Drill rush also works great, and the drill rush renders you invincible, so it makes for a cool finish to do it into the solar cannon >_<

Ajim- He's powerful as he is with normal shot, heh.

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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Akuma_from_Germany » 08 Jul 2010, 15:23

Sorry for asking this dumb question but I got some problems with the nomenclature: What is RTCW? I figure it is right turbo-center weapon, yes?
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby shamanic_beat » 08 Jul 2010, 15:51

Yes
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Siren » 03 Sep 2010, 09:29

Whenever I'm up against a Five Star General who I have no chance in hell of beating otherwise, I've found that the best strategy is to get their health lower than mine, then exhaust them by going purely on defense for the rest of the match. (Usually staying on the opposite side of the map.)

It's harder to do around players who are really good with long distance attacks. Bal-Bados is a monster in the hands of someone who knows how to use him...

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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby neoKEN » 22 Sep 2011, 01:42

Siren wrote:Whenever I'm up against a Five Star General who I have no chance in hell of beating otherwise, I've found that the best strategy is to get their health lower than mine, then exhaust them by going purely on defense for the rest of the match. (Usually staying on the opposite side of the map.)

It's harder to do around players who are really good with long distance attacks. Bal-Bados is a monster in the hands of someone who knows how to use him...


Playing a machi (chicken) style won't help you get better as a player. Many people don't consider it fun. Offense takes far more skill than running away the whole round. Have you consider working on your offensive play? What if a skilled player scored a hit on you with a life lead then does the same running away tactics, what would you do then without an offensive plan?
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Schooly D » 22 Sep 2011, 09:28

neoKEN wrote:
Siren wrote:Whenever I'm up against a Five Star General who I have no chance in hell of beating otherwise, I've found that the best strategy is to get their health lower than mine, then exhaust them by going purely on defense for the rest of the match. (Usually staying on the opposite side of the map.)

It's harder to do around players who are really good with long distance attacks. Bal-Bados is a monster in the hands of someone who knows how to use him...


Playing a machi (chicken) style won't help you get better as a player. Many people don't consider it fun. Offense takes far more skill than running away the whole round. Have you consider working on your offensive play? What if a skilled player scored a hit on you with a life lead then does the same running away tactics, what would you do then without an offensive plan?


Wait, what.

You of all people should know (since you've probably watched more replays than everyone else on the forum combined) that at high levels of play, the game is almost exclusively "get the first hit and run away." In fact, sort of the hallmark of a match between newbies is that they're both always playing aggressively, regardless of which one has the health lead.
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby neoKEN » 22 Sep 2011, 13:03

Schooly D wrote:You of all people should know (since you've probably watched more replays than everyone else on the forum combined) that at high levels of play, the game is almost exclusively "get the first hit and run away." In fact, sort of the hallmark of a match between newbies is that they're both always playing aggressively, regardless of which one has the health lead.


Playing a bit more defensive with a life lead is not the same as running away all game long. The same as being aggressive does not mean over committing with nonstop dash attacks which is what newbies tend to do. It is possible to launch waves of attack without over committing. Having the life lead allows the player to control the pace of the match.

Yes, I do watch and follow the scene of high level play, but I also play with those same people. It is definitely not just "get the first hit and run away." Without learning how to do a proper offense, weaker players will have a very difficult time trying to regain the lead (if ever).

Telling people to "run away" is poor advice. Its a temporary solution for a problem that is much worse, their lack of skills.
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Schooly D » 22 Sep 2011, 13:56

neoKEN wrote:
Schooly D wrote:You of all people should know (since you've probably watched more replays than everyone else on the forum combined) that at high levels of play, the game is almost exclusively "get the first hit and run away." In fact, sort of the hallmark of a match between newbies is that they're both always playing aggressively, regardless of which one has the health lead.


Playing a bit more defensive with a life lead is not the same as running away all game long. The same as being aggressive does not mean over committing with nonstop dash attacks which is what newbies tend to do. It is possible to launch waves of attack without over committing. Having the life lead allows the player to control the pace of the match.

Yes, I do watch and follow the scene of high level play, but I also play with those same people. It is definitely not just "get the first hit and run away." Without learning how to do a proper offense, weaker players will have a very difficult time trying to regain the lead (if ever).

Telling people to "run away" is poor advice. Its a temporary solution for a problem that is much worse, their lack of skills.


You're taking things to extremes here. He stumbled upon THE strategy for VOOT. That is, get a comfortable health lead, and play defensively. Playing defensively doesn't have to mean "turn around and dash around the walls of the level" and I sincerely doubt that's what he meant or what he does.

The hallmark of a newbie is a constantly aggressive style. They ALSO do constant dash attacks, but that's unrelated and one doesn't have to follow the other. It's possible to play constantly aggressive without overcommitting (good players do it all the time when they're down in health), but when someone is doing it while they have a comfortable health lead, they're either a newbie or not taking it seriously.

Cat-and-mouse is one of the most fundamental aspects of VOOT, and what he described (get a health lead and play defensively) is completely, perfectly, 100% acceptable and correct. He, like everyone else, will develop his aggressive, rush-down style in situations when he doesn't have a health lead. If you play any decent Japanese Dordray, Specineff, Bal, etc., and you give them a health lead, they will sit behind the same building throwing stuff for the entire match unless you go pressure them. It's hard to get much more defensive than that, and yet we (should) recognize it as entirely legitimate.

tl;dr I completely disagree with the idea that you have to play aggressively even with a health lead otherwise you won't improve.
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby neoKEN » 22 Sep 2011, 15:47

His words..

Siren wrote:Whenever I'm up against a Five Star General who I have no chance in hell of beating otherwise, I've found that the best strategy is to get their health lower than mine, then exhaust them by going purely on defense for the rest of the match. (Usually staying on the opposite side of the map.)
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Schooly D » 22 Sep 2011, 18:14

neoKEN wrote:His words..

Siren wrote:Whenever I'm up against a Five Star General who I have no chance in hell of beating otherwise, I've found that the best strategy is to get their health lower than mine, then exhaust them by going purely on defense for the rest of the match. (Usually staying on the opposite side of the map.)


That's exactly what good players do. If I'm fighting, I dunno, naoelldorado, and he takes the lead, he's going to run away from me. And if I don't chase him, he's going to camp himself on the opposite side of the map. But, of course, I do chase him. So instead of parking himself in one spot on the opposite side of the map, he'll spend the game trying to put as much distance between me and him as possible. This can vary in certain VR matchups (e.g. a Fei-Yen will try to remain in mid-range versus Dordray, even if she has the health lead, because Dordray can hurt Fei from extreme range but not the opposite), but it's up to him to figure out what those are.
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby neoKEN » 22 Sep 2011, 23:09

Schooly D wrote:
neoKEN wrote:His words..

Siren wrote:Whenever I'm up against a Five Star General who I have no chance in hell of beating otherwise, I've found that the best strategy is to get their health lower than mine, then exhaust them by going purely on defense for the rest of the match. (Usually staying on the opposite side of the map.)


That's exactly what good players do. If I'm fighting, I dunno, naoelldorado, and he takes the lead, he's going to run away from me. And if I don't chase him, he's going to camp himself on the opposite side of the map. But, of course, I do chase him. So instead of parking himself in one spot on the opposite side of the map, he'll spend the game trying to put as much distance between me and him as possible. This can vary in certain VR matchups (e.g. a Fei-Yen will try to remain in mid-range versus Dordray, even if she has the health lead, because Dordray can hurt Fei from extreme range but not the opposite), but it's up to him to figure out what those are.


Now, you are going into character specifics. Of course there will be characters that have not much options than running away such as bal-bados who struggles to do anything immediate at mid range. I can list a bunch too with specineff, angelan, 10/80 Special or explain theories on why dordray has to run away in certain matchups. Despite all that, your examples are the exception rather than the rule.

I read Siren comment for what it is. I don't want to argue over semantics. I gave him my advice on how to improve his overall gameplay which is by learning offense, instead of laming it out to win. Through proper offense will he be able to create openings. I emphasize learning strong fundamentals, not an immediate "cheap" victory.

From my experience I notice a few of the mid-level western players, they struggle to get any kind of strong offense going. Focus on that quick (and easy) victory by running away. As people got better, the very defensive player became lacking in both technical skills and offense. You'll be surprise at how often I see both players at opposite ends of the stage (and I shake my head in disbelief). Meanwhile, our skilled aggressive players improves even faster. They tend to have high APM (actions per minute) which means they are faster and have the ability to pull of amazing things in a real match (see: my youtube page for examples).
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby Schooly D » 22 Sep 2011, 23:45

neoKEN wrote:I read Siren comment for what it is. I don't want to argue over semantics. I gave him my advice on how to improve his overall gameplay which is by learning offense, instead of laming it out to win. Through proper offense will he be able to create openings. I emphasize learning strong fundamentals, not an immediate "cheap" victory.


There are a million of these, but this is the first one I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTSnQj53qa4

Notice how the dynamics of the match change whenever one of them get the lead. Now, the person who's running away can't make it all the way to the other side of the map because the opposing player's rush-down is too sharp and they'd get tagged. But you can tell that as soon as the health lead changes, one person attacks and the other person runs away. When Temjin gets the lead, if the Fei-Yen didn't chase him down, Temjin WOULD end up on the other half of the map. This is just how high-level play works, barring exceptions. Now if you've really got the stones to accuse those players of lacking strong fundamentals, and "laming" and going for a "cheap" victory, I guess that's your call. I see it differently.

Here again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65pGqfU_ ... re=related

From my experience I notice a few of the mid-level western players, they struggle to get any kind of strong offense going. Focus on that quick (and easy) victory by running away. As people got better, the very defensive player became lacking in both technical skills and offense. You'll be surprise at how often I see both players at opposite ends of the stage (and I shake my head in disbelief). Meanwhile, our skilled aggressive players improves even faster. They tend to have high APM (actions per minute) which means they are faster and have the ability to pull of amazing things in a real match (see: my youtube page for examples).


I noticed the exact opposite. At one point, PhantomPhoton was a very good player, but he always played aggressively all the time and lost matches because of it. Then I told him to start playing more reasonably, and to run away / play defensively when he had the lead. And the instant he started doing that, he became almost unbeatable.

Players following this strategy of playing defensively with the lead aren't going to have the lead all the time. They're going to be in plenty of games where at one point they're down in health and they have to play aggressively. They can develop that skill then. The only thing telling them to always play aggressively all the time does is make them lose games they could win.

Where do you rank yourself, skill-wise, in our group of non-Japanese players?
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Re: Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram Beginner's Guide

Postby MentholMoose » 22 Sep 2011, 23:57

neoKEN wrote:I gave him my advice on how to improve his overall gameplay which is by learning offense, instead of laming it out to win. Through proper offense will he be able to create openings. I emphasize learning strong fundamentals, not an immediate "cheap" victory.

I think you guys have similar ideas and are splitting hairs here.
Schooly D wrote:This can vary in certain VR matchups (e.g. a Fei-Yen will try to remain in mid-range versus Dordray, even if she has the health lead, because Dordray can hurt Fei from extreme range but not the opposite), but it's up to him to figure out what those are.
(emphasis mine)

You gotta learn both offense and defense. The situation will determine what actions you need to take. In most situations there won't be a single, "best" option. If there was, there would be no style element and VOOT would be less interesting.
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