Tier list thoughts?

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Kita
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Kita » 28 Jan 2013, 19:22

Porcupine wrote:Everybody seems to be using Specineff forward-diagonal dash crouch CW nowdays. I don't know who doesn't, anymore. But it's usefulness doesn't surprise me. His forward dash crouch CW would probably have been better except it doesn't exist, it turned into the sliding board move. I just think of it that way.

I didn't know it was that good before but then again I didn't even really play before, and even less so against Specineff.

Almost every robot seems too strong to me. I guess that's what VOOT is about. A battle to see who can take better advantage of their broken-ness.
It's not about taking advantage of "broken" techniques. It's about utilizing all aspects of your Virtuaroid to concoct strategies to defeat any challenger using your preferred VR. A strategy that's highly effective against one player and his VR may not be effective against someone else in the same VR. A Raiden who uses laserfences as the centerpiece of his battle strategy will be really surprised then the Fei-Yen he thought was going to snare and bazookaspam to death is up in his face, poking his optics out, too close for laserfences to be of any use.
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Porcupine
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Porcupine » 15 Apr 2014, 19:13

All versions of the health table seem to have gone down as of last week. By coincidence, I made a backup copy just before it went down so that I could tinker around with it. Here's what I made. Hopefully I didn't make any errors while copying the original table entries.

ImageImage

The first table is the health table, plus I colored in each VR's high and low health values in blue and red. The previous table had a similar coloring but it didn't seem to have been colored in correctly.

The following tables are created by me manipulating the information in the raw health table. The idea is that knowing how your VR's health changes with each matchup is misleading. You have to know how the opponent VR's health adjusts as well. So I calculated a new health table which shows the relative health advantage in each matchup. To do that, I had to guess what each VR's normal health would have been, had a health table not existed.

Next, the colorful table is the tier list matchup table in the topic, superimposed on my modified health table. This is neat because we can check if the health table balanced out a particular matchup, or worsened it. Guys who are color blind will probably not be able to see the tier colors, sorry.

Finally, the black and white table shows whether the health table contributed to balancing or worsening each matchup. For the most part this was pretty straightforward to determine but for the borderline cases I used my own judgment.

The VOOT health table appears to be helpful in more matchups than it is hurtful, but nevertheless it is hurtful in a significant number of matches. I suspect the same would apply to health tables for games in general. The game creators should be right more often than they are wrong, and improve balance from an averaged-out perspective. Unfortunately, those times they are wrong can create the most unbalanced matchups in the game because those matchups are getting a double dose of imbalance.
Last edited by Porcupine on 01 Jun 2017, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Porcupine
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Porcupine » 07 Dec 2015, 18:28

I discovered that replay files contain HP information, even though they don't really need to. If I remember correctly, Dreamcast may have had a handicap option, which could explain why. In any case, I double checked and corrected the original japanese health table.

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Most of the errors were just a few HP off. There were several errors involving Bal-Baros. One funny thing that's apparent now, is that Apharmd B and Bal may have had their health values accidentally switched by Sega. It's fortunate their health was similar to begin with. It's still supposed to be the toughest matchup for Apharmd B.

Bal has really favorable health situations against both Bradtos and Tangram, so the ease with which he kills them is not indicative of his true firepower. It's unknown how powerful Bal-Keros would be in real space matches, because we don't know his health against regular VRs. All VRs perform very differently in space anyway. Turbo attacks typically do double or triple of their normal damage in space, so that's what most VRs should be using to kill Tangram.
Last edited by Porcupine on 01 Jun 2017, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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shamanic_beat
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by shamanic_beat » 10 Dec 2015, 22:27

Is there a chart for Fei-Yen sans V-Armor?
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Porcupine
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Porcupine » 11 Dec 2015, 14:52

Wow that's pretty good graphics! Actually I noticed a while back that even though they are the same design, the VR models in PSO2 are not identical to the ones in Force. I think they have more polygons; it was really noticeable on Angelan. I like how that Fei-Yen has no skirt. I had originally hoped edited color files could turn Fei-Yen's skirt transparent in VOOT, but it was not possible.

...Maybe I could search for more mystery VRs in Force and hope one of them is a Fei-Yen with no skirt. But that's unlikely at this point. There were some weird Temjins (floating head, etc) but he was the only one.

About V-Armor, they don't need to be in the replay file, and unfortunately I don't think they are. However, there is a strange data location located near the HP areas of both VRs, that contains values that are similar to HP. I suspect it could be V-Armor, however the data is not quite right and I could not confirm what it is.

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shamanic_beat
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by shamanic_beat » 11 Dec 2015, 18:57

She has a skirt in the game. I just customized mine extensively.

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They are adding a graphics upgrades at the beginning of next year when PSO2 hits PS4. Not that I recommend it to anyone who wants to play it for the gameplay.
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ChexGuy
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by ChexGuy » 12 Dec 2015, 08:59

those are just regular cast parts, right?
ImageImage

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shamanic_beat
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by shamanic_beat » 12 Dec 2015, 09:09

Yes.
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neoKEN
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by neoKEN » 15 Jun 2022, 21:55

13 years later from the original post :lol: . Besides Bal-bados, I started to play Specineff, Dordray & Raiden more seriously.

Here are my thoughts:

Regarding Bal-bados vs Angelan, ERL laser, mines & ground mines = dead Angelan. Normally other VR "chases" BAL which slows down his waves of attack. However Angelan isn't suited to chasing the opponent down so BAL is free to go all out on attacks. Angelan's attacks not so hard to evade at a distance especially the dragons. Unless Angelan can get a hit, BAL's life lead keeps extending over time. This match-up is generally a free win for me unless I do something silly. I don't really think much in this matchup. I feel it is almost entirely up to Bal-bados to lose or not. That's how bad it is.

Dordray is a great overall VR. Very fun to play if you enjoy predictive attacks. Ex. Flames, rush attacks, rings. Has great comeback potential! Downside is airborne opponent.

Specineff is scary! I can see why he could be top tier. cCW is one of the best moves in the entire game! I rate it better than Raiden's laser, but on par with Raiden's laser cage. cCW can hit you during your "fast" recovery move such as Raiden's laser cage. While you are worried about getting hit by the cCW, you'll have 2-3 orbs chasing you. Combine his dash with rotation, Specineff would always be aware of opponent's location & quickly determine whether it is good time to strike or not. With Specineff, I don't feel as stressed when I'm behind in life because he can quickly change the lead with a good read using cCW.

Raiden is solid. I tend to use laser cage more than laser. Laser cage is instant and goes through obstacles. With half-cancel you will be throwing out the laser cage all the time! When my opponent is near the edge of the screen, I restrict his movement with a laser cage. If they are hiding behind an obstacle, I would skewered him with laser cage. You get a free follow up attack after catching them in the laser cage. Against light VR like Angelan & Raiden, it can be devastating. RTRW laser cage combination is a game change. Against weaker players, I see how often I catch them with a laser cage then hit them with LTRW (no damage) :lol: . cRW comes out instantly so instant punish. Raiden's "bad" matchups are actually not too bad unlike Specineff's & Dordray's bad matchup.
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Porcupine
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Porcupine » 16 Jun 2022, 20:23

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This is a more recent tier list that was supposedly compiled by AZY, who has long been one of Japan's elite arcade members and one of the best Cypher players.

We've sort of been transitioning to a new generation in the past 6 years or so. I fully agree that this list accurately reflects present conditions. However, I am skeptical and more inclined to side with the old list for now. The reason is that I noticed that this list seems to have generally raised and lowered various VRs as a whole, more than specific matchup tweaks. Furthermore these raisings and lowerings correspond to those VRs that currently have or lack S class players using them.

There are more players than ever now due to Masterpiece being on PS4, but the overall average quality of competition has diminished, and the gap between the S players, the A players (which now includes a number of us in my opinion) and everyone else has grown larger. There are fewer S class players than there used to be because many became inactive, so a lot of formerly powerful VR became unrepresented.

There is a myth going around among some Japanese players that Xbox 360 and Masterpiece repeatedly shrank projectile hitboxes as a global effect, which ruined some VRs more than others. While I agree completely on the tier impact if hitboxes shrank, I have been spending long hours testing their claims objectively and thus far refuted them all. This ranking is polluted either directly or indirectly by these feelings. For example, some top Japanese Fei-Yen players use it as an excuse or quit entirely.

Raiden: mench777 has been the top player for a while, so I think this ranking could be unbalanced by the skill of just one player.

Specineff: no idea who the current good ones are. But the strongest one in Ranked Match recently was playing differently and abusing his sliding crCW against me. It made me realize and point out to neoken that this move is really hard to dodge even at a distance. It has to be dodged by side dashing within 200m which puts it on par or above all the other beam cutter and homing attacks in this game with similar hitting ability. Basically Fei-Yen crLTLW, Temjin CW and crCW, Battler walking CW, Grys-Vok crLTCW, etc. I didn't realize it was that hard to dodge before especially because it is a vertical wave, unlike the other attacks in this class. Specineff diagonal forward dash crCW, a long known staple, also has identical hitting ability as crCW. Although Specineff diagonal dash crCW tends to be used more at point-blank range like Temjin forward dash RW, it could also be used as a mid-distance superiority attack.

I studied Specineff crCW for a couple days and could find no weakness with that move or way to overcome it, so I basically think much better of him than before. (Nevertheless, the one match I played against that same Specineff player after my studies became far more competitive somehow).

Grys-Vok: also happens to have a new S-rank representative in mito-sanka (I'm one of the better Feis against Grys players thanks to all my matches with FlyExponent and MentholMoose, yet I got crushed by him in Ranked, at least in the first couple matches).

Temjin: there are lately a bit more S-rank Temjins, so again my feeling that this new ranking is overly biased towards carbon-based life forms that currently are found on this planet.

Fei: there have been zero S-rank Fei-Yen players for the last 10 years. So I am skeptical if she legitimately dropped. It's possible, and indeed I seem to have no chance against SoulGuitarist's Apharmd B these days, but I've always had trouble with Japanese Battler players, and I'm still just as bad against the majority of them. Hopefully some experience will let me push the tiers a bit, as I currently feel this is the generation where we western players can start having some influence.

Bal: there are supposedly a lot of S-rank Bals around, so again I think he is floating up due to the population and current interest.

Battler: although he still looks pretty low on the list he actually moved up, and Battlers have been pretty dominant for the past eight years or so thanks to S Zetto who started the trend. He's still probably the best Battler, but there are lots of other great ones too.

Angelan: the ones I see these days play differently, and I think she is evolving.

Commander: I think he is good, but he has suffered from the problem of never having an S or even A-rank representative. He's almost as bad as Striker on this list. And while I do not think Striker is as bad as many others do, I think there is a big separation to Commander, who should be closer to Temjin and others.

Stein-Vok: not sure if he should be higher than this. He also has ever only had one player with him, ChainBlood, who used to be a B-rank in my opinion, but now he is solid S-rank. But he is still all alone by himself with no one to help him represent Stein-Vok.

Striker: has never had even an A-rank representative, but I always see lots of S-class using him in player matches (along with Ajim and 10/80) so he has enough representation in the sense that top players know him as well as can be, but won't choose him in a tournament. In contrast, I noticed that most S-class players can play almost all VR at a top level, except Fei-Yen. Not just against me, but in general. I see them trying to use various VR against each other, and every time they try Fei-Yen they are noticeably quite unremarkable and at a level lower than with any other VR. This is another reason I think Fei-Yen may currently be underrated.

(I have also heard, according to aniking and some others, that Fei-Yen has long been hated by a large number of players in Japan. This may be true, but it has gotten to the point where a potentially top VR may not be adequately represented or appreciated. She's not the only one though: people probably hate or disrespect Raiden and Specineff players just as much).

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