Tier list thoughts?

Discuss the Virtual-On series.
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Sixfortyfive
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Sixfortyfive » 30 May 2009, 09:59

I know that V Armor varies in effectiveness depending on whether you're stationary/crouching/moving/etc, but I'm not sure if other defense attributes change as well.
DooM wrote:I thought this as well, as it would make a logical amount of sense. After the dragon hit bal in training, however, both fled the screen. Which made me assume that both must have hit. But i suppose I've never taken the time to notice if after a successful hit, if the other remaining dragon flees the scene by default? Which I think is due to the fact that im so used to seeing only one dragon, as the other often hits an obstacles/gets blown up/ etc. Leaving me to assume that the dragon only goes away once it's been dealt with. Does anyone else know if this is the case?
I don't think the 2nd dragon automatically flees after the 1st dragon hits. I'm pretty sure I've been knocked over by one and then hit by the other as I'm falling down (but before enough time has passed for the 2nd dragon to cause additional damage; it just hits and then flies away with no effect).

EDIT: I also noticed that the tier list / match-up diagram posted in the OP has been changed around since it was linked. Fei has been moved higher, and there are different tied ratings in the ranking that weren't there before.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by feixaq » 25 Jul 2009, 22:44

I just noticed that Spec vs Rai dropped from 6.5/3.5 to 6/4. Which I think makes sense; Spec has an advantage in speed and projectiles that go through obstacles, but Raidens that use laser cages and also anticipate well and use standing CW are pretty effective.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by neoKEN » 26 Jul 2009, 22:24

Ignoring the bottom of the barrel VR, Virtual On seems pretty balance to me. It should with so many prior versions before 5.66 :D

Excluding bottom barrels, and a few of Bal's & Angelan's, there isn't too many 3-7 slaughterfest. Coming from Street Fighter (Capcom) background, VOOT is amazingly balance. I might not be at a high enough level to feel certain imbalances, but in Street Fighter you'd feel it right away at the bottom to intermediate level where people can literally spam 1 move which gives you frustration.

Heh, or I could be completely wrong about the spam 1 move part. Fei's walking RW and Temjin's dashing RW come to mind
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Schooly D » 27 Jul 2009, 00:26

neoKEN wrote:Heh, or I could be completely wrong about the spam 1 move part. Fei's walking RW and Temjin's dashing RW come to mind
Higher-level Feis spam (c)LTLW. I don't see Temjin's Fwd-RW used much at high levels except for when the opponent really left himself open (as I always do).
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Sixfortyfive
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Sixfortyfive » 27 Jul 2009, 01:18

I'm not exactly sure what the appeal of Fei's LTLW is. Is it just the speed of the shot that matters? Cause standard RW chips off a significant amount of V Armor all by itself.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Schooly D » 27 Jul 2009, 08:15

Sixfortyfive wrote:I'm not exactly sure what the appeal of Fei's LTLW is. Is it just the speed of the shot that matters? Cause standard RW chips off a significant amount of V Armor all by itself.
It's very difficult to dodge. It doesn't do a lot of damage, but at high levels all you need to do is land a hit and play defensively until time runs out.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by ThomasMak0524 » 27 Jul 2009, 09:16

Anyone knows how to translate this website ( http://ot.virtual-on.com/index.php?%A5% ... 5%E9%A5%E0 ) to English? It seems the website has listed all the secret moves in the game.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DeepInTheHops » 28 Jul 2009, 05:05

feixaq wrote:I just noticed that Spec vs Rai dropped from 6.5/3.5 to 6/4. Which I think makes sense; Spec has an advantage in speed and projectiles that go through obstacles, but Raidens that use laser cages and also anticipate well and use standing CW are pretty effective.
In my experience, it seems like the laser cages are key for defeating Specineff. Players who are good at using them are really tough for me, players who don't use them well (or at all) are a lot easier.

It's kind of interesting to see how this list changes over time, even if I don't know the reasons.

Raiden is now tied for #1 with Specineff, and would actually beat him if you took out 10/80 and Ajim from the total (although overall rank probably doesn't mean much when you're that close). I noticed that a few Specineff matchups were downgraded by half a point (Raiden, Cypher, AphB). Raiden vs. AphS is now 8-2; last time I checked there wasn't anything worse than 7-3 (not counting Ajim and 10/80).
Schooly D wrote:I don't see Temjin's Fwd-RW used much at high levels except for when the opponent really left himself open (as I always do).
I must leave myself open a lot. :) Temjin's Forward dash RW destroys me, and a lot of players seem to have good timing with it (good rotational speed helps, I'm sure). I really need to learn how to use those weapon disablers in battle; instinctively I can never find a good time to use them.
ThomasMak0524 wrote:Anyone knows how to translate this website ( http://ot.virtual-on.com/index.php?%A5% ... 5%E9%A5%E0 ) to English? It seems the website has listed all the secret moves in the game.
Yeah that might be nice. Google Translate leaves something to be desired. Although it did make me smile when it translated Battler as Butler in the 5.2 list. I immediately imagined the VR selection screen with that robotic voice saying "Apharmd: The Butler"

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by MentholMoose » 28 Jul 2009, 08:23

DeepInTheHops wrote:I must leave myself open a lot. :) Temjin's Forward dash RW destroys me, and a lot of players seem to have good timing with it (good rotational speed helps, I'm sure).
The Specineff players I've seen that were really hard to beat really excelled at dodging attacks, and not making themselves vulnerable.
DeepInTheHops wrote:I really need to learn how to use those weapon disablers in battle; instinctively I can never find a good time to use them.
They are easy to avoid, and I've never felt they were particularly useful other than as a harassment weapon.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by feixaq » 28 Jul 2009, 08:44

DeepInTheHops wrote:In my experience, it seems like the laser cages are key for defeating Specineff. Players who are good at using them are really tough for me, players who don't use them well (or at all) are a lot easier.
I've learned over time how to deal with Raidens that blindly spam laser cages from longer range -- you can always do a quick jump, side or forward airdash cancel to avoid the followup bazooka shot, or if you get caught in the cage, you can always struggle hard and dash away before the shots connect. However, really good Raiden players who correctly anticipate, rotate, and catch you at close range with a laser cage and then jump cancel - dash CC are *deadly*, and I get killed by them all the time.
DeepInTheHops wrote:Temjin's Forward dash RW destroys me, and a lot of players seem to have good timing with it (good rotational speed helps, I'm sure). I really need to learn how to use those weapon disablers in battle; instinctively I can never find a good time to use them.
I'm finding that I'm having a tough time dealing with good Temjin players with impeccable RW timing and good bomb cover skills, too! Weapon disablers - the nice thing about Spec is that you can always use cLTLW or cLTRW at the end of a dash attack (doi-2), so you get a weapon disabler out for not much ammo cost, plus it cuts on freeze time. Before the start of the match, I always try to think about which weapon I'd prefer to disable (LW: Cypher, Dordray, Apharmd B...; RW: Temjin, Apharmd C/S, Grysvok, Spec...) and then use the appropriate one. Also worth machine gunning standing LTRW/LTLW into walking RW... together with the LW balls and CW, you might be able to throw an opponent off balance with the different projectiles all coming in at different velocities and homing rates. (But MM is right -- the disablers are more for harrassment value.)

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DeepInTheHops » 28 Jul 2009, 10:18

MentholMoose wrote:The Specineff players I've seen that were really hard to beat really excelled at dodging attacks, and not making themselves vulnerable.
So the key is to play better - got it. ;) I'm probably just air dash attacking too much; against good players I'm often a sitting duck for a Big Two during my landing. Sometimes I can quick step my way out of it, but usually not.
MentholMoose wrote:
DeepInTheHops wrote:I really need to learn how to use those weapon disablers in battle; instinctively I can never find a good time to use them.
They are easy to avoid, and I've never felt they were particularly useful other than as a harassment weapon.
That's how I've always felt about them, so I pretty much never use them. Temjin's RW seems like a compelling case, though... he seems like he'd be pretty hampered without it. Even so, it doesn't seem like a great use of Specineff's RW.
feixaq wrote:However, really good Raiden players who correctly anticipate, rotate, and catch you at close range with a laser cage and then jump cancel - dash CC are *deadly*, and I get killed by them all the time.
Those are the players I was thinking of, although I usually get hit by forward dash RW while I'm stuck (still pretty brutal). Getting caught in a cage at mid to long range often doesn't result in a follow-up hit.
feixaq wrote:Weapon disablers - the nice thing about Spec is that you can always use cLTLW or cLTRW at the end of a dash attack (doi-2), so you get a weapon disabler out for not much ammo cost, plus it cuts on freeze time.
Yeah I need more practice with doi-2 dashes, I never pull them off. So LT is good for something!

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Spiff » 28 Jul 2009, 20:47

DeepInTheHops wrote:
MentholMoose wrote:
DeepInTheHops wrote:I really need to learn how to use those weapon disablers in battle; instinctively I can never find a good time to use them.
They are easy to avoid, and I've never felt they were particularly useful other than as a harassment weapon.
That's how I've always felt about them, so I pretty much never use them. Temjin's RW seems like a compelling case, though... he seems like he'd be pretty hampered without it. Even so, it doesn't seem like a great use of Specineff's RW.
Yeah, Big two spammers are more or less asking to be LTRW'd provided you actually manage to hit. jLTRW seems to be easier to catch someone in a dash but in the case of big two you'll get hit too-- and for Specineff that never feels good on your face. For a while I tried to use weapon locking attacks as a sort of lockdown tactic to stop players from hitting me. I'd BTCW Raiden, LTRW Temjin, generally lock their "omfg lol" weapon. I had a Dordray player running for his life with both his LW and RW disabled one time. That was fun. The tactic itself worked on players that weren't good at canceling their freezes, and on people that knew how to do so I got torn apart until I stopped.

But damnit, spamming the LT weapon locks are awesome against the stupid AI if you're trying to go for a time over to fight Ajim. Which I still do because I've always had a thing for the wtflol penalty bosses like Ajim and Jaguarandi.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Exorcet » 25 Jan 2013, 17:00

I don't know how many replies this will get but, I've always felt VOOT to be pretty balanced. While their may be a tier list, I'm not sure it's something that will become too evident in a large enough group of players Some people will be better with certain VR's (for me, it's Cypher), but you can probably find a good player for most of the VR's.

That said, Dordray has always kind of stuck out for me. He has the best V Armor, good defense, and a move for basically every situation. His forward dash LW and CW give him high mobility for his size and also provide two very useful attacks for experience players. Good Dordray players that I've seen (curiously, I haven't really seen many bad Dordray's) will either make jumping very hazardous with a combination of dashing LW/CW or RTRW (lava arc) or use the dash moves to get away quick a turtle using the drill, lava arc, and paralyzing CW.

Dordray is also very hard to knockdown. I find it really annoying that when I do get a good hit with something like Cypher's aerial forward dash CW Dordray will just tank it and then hit me with something for twice as much damage. Trying to get in close to negate these attributes doesn't do much good since Dordray is a good close range fighter as well. Being close to him makes his claw harder to avoid, and once you're hit with that, you're either going to get drilled or CW'd. The drill itself can hit you after missing and of course he has the forward dash moves that just allow him to run, or hit and run if he paralyzes you first.

If there is a tier list, I'm fairly convinced that Dordray is on top. I'm not too fussed on where everyone else is. At the moment I think I'd make a tier list like this:

Dordray
Raiden
Temjin
Chypher
Speceniff
Angelan
Fei Yen
Battler
Striker
Commander

And by the 4th spot I'm pretty much naming them off the top of my head.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by neoKEN » 26 Jan 2013, 13:50

3-4 years later, I have enough experience now to talk about the VR ranking/matchup chart. I play all the VRs, much better with some than others. The chart is fairly accurate, and maybe off 0.5 to 1 point difference depending on which top Japanese player you talk to.
Exorcet wrote: That said, Dordray has always kind of stuck out for me. He has the best V Armor, good defense, and a move for basically every situation. His forward dash LW and CW give him high mobility for his size and also provide two very useful attacks for experience players. Good Dordray players that I've seen (curiously, I haven't really seen many bad Dordray's) will either make jumping very hazardous with a combination of dashing LW/CW or RTRW (lava arc) or use the dash moves to get away quick a turtle using the drill, lava arc, and paralyzing CW.

Dordray is also very hard to knockdown. I find it really annoying that when I do get a good hit with something like Cypher's aerial forward dash CW Dordray will just tank it and then hit me with something for twice as much damage. Trying to get in close to negate these attributes doesn't do much good since Dordray is a good close range fighter as well. Being close to him makes his claw harder to avoid, and once you're hit with that, you're either going to get drilled or CW'd. The drill itself can hit you after missing and of course he has the forward dash moves that just allow him to run, or hit and run if he paralyzes you first.

If there is a tier list, I'm fairly convinced that Dordray is on top. I'm not too fussed on where everyone else is. At the moment I think I'd make a tier list like this:
While Dordray is a very good VR, Cypher vs Dordray matchup, favors Cypher. Even if Dordray hits very hard, it is meaningless if Dordray can't hit Cypher while it is not as hard for a Cypher to hit Dordray. Due to Cypher's fantastic air mobility, Dordray's LW rush, CW rush, & onion rings (cCW) are not very effective in this matchup. Dordray's air rushes are easy for Cypher to counter. As a result, Dordray doesn't have many attack options to fight Cypher and is force to hope to hit then run. I actually find Cypher to be better at point blank range than Dordray. Dordray has serious issues upclose! Not only is Dordray's CC slow, it has almost no range. Upclose, Dordray's flame attack is useless. Rushes at close range are limited because it is more difficult to aim.

With Cypher, I win against Dordray players who are much more skilled than me.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Exorcet » 27 Jan 2013, 07:35

I can agree with some of what you said, however I think Dordray's CW is still pretty effective vs Cypher (particularly the jumping variant where he spreads them around a ~90 degree arc from side to side, and the three disks he shoots since they can hit multiple times). Also, hit and run can be very annoying with Dordray. He is a master turtle and the rush attacks are not only good for doing damage, but also increasing his mobility. I've had some good Dordrays run around the map using the rush attacks to get behind cover and basically negate anything that would come near them with lava. Hiding doesn't bother him because he's just going to shoot through walls if he feels the need to hit you.

And while Dordray's mobility should make it easier for Cypher to hit him (ignoring Dordray's much better ability to shield attacks, ability to shoot through cover, ability to tank hits, and the rush attacks for increasing speed) it's a lot easier for Dordray to inflict heavy damage on Cypher. According to the chart on the first page, Cypher faces Dordray with below average defense while Dordray has above average.

I don't know, maybe I need to watch more Cypher vs Dordray matches. Dordray is really the only VR I'm afraid of.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by neoKEN » 27 Jan 2013, 18:24

Exorcet wrote: I don't know, maybe I need to watch more Cypher vs Dordray matches. Dordray is really the only VR I'm afraid of.
Yes, you probably should. Watching better players will help show how to play that particular matchup.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Zaarock » 28 Jan 2013, 03:31

I'm not sure about the matchup but for me it seems mostly balanced. The problem is I've mostly played against two really good dordray users (aniking, men doru) though the VR suddenly got popular a couple years back, it used to be niche (waiting for the same to happen with stein-vok :p ) Feels like cypher has advantages in a lot of things but for example hit and run is marred by the turtling dordray can do (sitting next to a wall and blowing himself up :roll: ) which cypher barely has any counter attacks for (RTCW, jRTCW, jRTRW if your opponent is being lazy)

If cypher has the health lead he can win the match fairly easily, I'd argue it does have the advantage because of more mobility to get the health lead and chip damage. Not to say this makes me win against aniking or men doru any more than 1/10 of the time even though I think I'm fairly good by now :p

Bonus add for the topic: Specineff diagonal dash cCW is a very good attack, super accurate punishing move that will hit about any movement speed. Against cypher it's pretty devastating because it does more damage than anything cypher has against spec making it almost pointless to use dash attacks up close against a good specineff(or one that is simply waiting for you to make a mistake, if they're relying on punishing) unless you've baited out the CW gauge. Might sound obvious about specineffs CW but I don't see western players using this particular variant much
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Exorcet » 28 Jan 2013, 06:05

Really, people don't use that CW attack? I'm basically spamming it since it's so reliable. When I first saw the tier list a long while ago, I doubted how Spec could be so high until I started CWing more. I bet I'm still Spec-ing wrong though. I can only play Cypher and Raiden really well.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Schooly D » 28 Jan 2013, 11:08

Disagree that Cypher vs Dordray favors Cypher. Cypher can hit Dordray for a few points pretty easily, but Dordray's rushdown game is very good vs Cypher. His RTRW goes over most obstacles Cypher can hide behind, and his quick rotation means it's very effective at prediction-lasering. Also his drill rush comes out very quickly, deals massive damage, is extremely hard to counter, and recharges fairly quickly. Cypher can hit Dordray with daggers all day, but all it takes is one drill rush or RTRW and the match is basically over. When Dordray does have the lead, it's almost impossible for Cypher to get to him except on a couple of maps due to his great turtle game and the ease with which he can escape danger via drill/CD rush.

I have an easier time beating men doru and aniking with my Striker (and sometimes my Battler) than my Cypher. The only VRs I'd say are worse matchups for Cypher are Raiden and possibly Specineff. Easiest matchups for Cypher are probably Angelan, the Apharmds, and Grys-Vok.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Porcupine » 28 Jan 2013, 17:46

Everybody seems to be using Specineff forward-diagonal dash crouch CW nowdays. I don't know who doesn't, anymore. But it's usefulness doesn't surprise me. His forward dash crouch CW would probably have been better except it doesn't exist, it turned into the sliding board move. I just think of it that way.

I didn't know it was that good before but then again I didn't even really play before, and even less so against Specineff.

Almost every robot seems too strong to me. I guess that's what VOOT is about. A battle to see who can take better advantage of their broken-ness.

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