Tier list thoughts?

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DeepInTheHops
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Tier list thoughts?

Post by DeepInTheHops » 23 May 2009, 12:50

I saw this list, not sure how official or generally accepted it is:
http://ot.virtual-on.com/index.php?%A5% ... 5%E9%A5%E0

It's kind of disheartening that I'm using the "best" VR and generally get my ass kicked. :oops: Even the VRs that I lose to almost every time (Dordray and Angelan) are considered even matches.

However, IIRC this game is balanced enough that tiers aren't that important if both players are at the same skill level. Then again I'm not sure how important tiers in any game since this is the only fighting game I play (if you even want to call it that).

So what do the more experienced players think of this?

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Sixfortyfive » 23 May 2009, 13:11

I'm not familiar enough with the in-and-outs of most of the VRs to really critique it. Specinef does seem to have a lot going for him, but he's also hard to use imo.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Schooly D » 23 May 2009, 13:15

I'm interested as to how these are calculated. Do they just set up a bunch of AI-AI matches?

I think by doing so they're eliminating the human component, which can be crucial. For example, you can imagine there being a glitch/technique/move with a certain VR that the AI doesn't know about that can completely break the game.

Although I do find Specineff players an absolute hassle to deal with.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DZef » 23 May 2009, 13:23

Keep in mind that this chart was compiled based on 10 year's accumulation of player experience. These numbers are assuming both sides are controlled by 10-year veterans with twin stick. Some VRs have a steep learning curve so its true potential will not show until you sleep and breath that VR for a few years :)

Specineff is a very peculiar VR because of his short dash and single shot RW. Unlike other VRs, he's not very good at counter assaults after evading. For Speci, evading and attack are two separate actions. The main attack style I see is to drop floating LW as much as you can, and RTCW from behind obstacles. When the opponent presents an opportunity, you will have to make that one-shot RW count.

The Japanese people say the game is actually not very well balanced at all, but the undying love for a particular VR and determination of steel overcomes the handicap :) It's generally said some match-ups, such as Bal vs Angelan, assuming both are highly experienced, Angelan nearly doesn't stand a chance. You can see the rating of "8" for Bal vs Ange in the chart, which means Ange is expected to lose 8 out of 10 times.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Sixfortyfive » 23 May 2009, 13:26

Schooly D wrote:I'm interested as to how these are calculated. Do they just set up a bunch of AI-AI matches?
Nah. These sorts of diagrams generally tell you how easy/difficult it is for characters to handle specific match-ups. It's subjective but reliable when the people writing it know the game well enough.

There's an explanation above the chart for the ratings, but I can't read it well enough to tell you what it says.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Gasaraki » 23 May 2009, 23:46

Lol I'm glad I wasn't disillusioned when I thought that Aph-C sucked.

And wow Spec doens't have any weak matches, lame.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Davo87 » 24 May 2009, 22:23

Pretty much most of specineff's even matchups r the ones where I find getting killed a lot easier. That means Grys-vok, Dordray and Balbados. Raiden gives me problems aswell, so unless there is secret strat Im missing out on to make that 6.5.

And I didnt know Fei yen wasnt so bad on the charts. What surprised me was Dordray was a bit lower. (Mbe the lack of running away potential)

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DeepInTheHops » 25 May 2009, 07:46

Davo87 wrote:Raiden gives me problems aswell, so unless there is secret strat Im missing out on to make that 6.5.
Really? In my experience Raiden is the easiest VR to beat with Specineff. He's big and slow so it's a lot easier to hit him with CW attacks. And unlike Dordray his attacks don't go through obstacles (except the laser cages), so it's a lot safer to play at mid to long range.

One guy I played against today did the Armor Break right off the bat both rounds. I wonder if he does that often or just because I was using Specineff.

Those 7.0 matches against Specineff seem kind of high, but since I'm not an advanced player my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight. :)

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by RVR - 42 » 25 May 2009, 08:16

Whoa! Cypher's way up there. Nice! :D
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DooM » 25 May 2009, 09:36

Intertesting look on how the VRs might fall when stacked up against each other. Overall its a pretty close listing to where I would have placed most of the bots based off my experiences (though I haven't seen nearly enough of Steinvok to have any idea about him). I will say that the two big surprises for me would be Fei And Dordray. With her being a good couple notches higher than i would have thought and Dor. being lower.
DZef wrote:The Japanese people say the game is actually not very well balanced at all, but the undying love for a particular VR and determination of steel overcomes the handicap :) It's generally said some match-ups, such as Bal vs Angelan, assuming both are highly experienced, Angelan nearly doesn't stand a chance. You can see the rating of "8" for Bal vs Ange in the chart, which means Ange is expected to lose 8 out of 10 times.
I found this to be very curious as an Angelan player. Now, i wouldn't consider myself an expert level player by any means, and perhaps thats why this matchups truths haven't made themselves apparent to me yet. But I've battled some amazingly good Bal players and the matchup just has never seemed as steep as 8-10. Its certainly a much different type of mach for Angelan, as Bal's field control can really wreck Angelan's positioning and make her high V.armor much less beneficial. But I would have leaned the match somewhere around a 6/6.5- 10 based off my own experiences.

It's certaintly not an easy fight, but I would have never guessed it was that bad. At the worst to me it just feels like a game where the ball has been firmly ripped from your court. The type of match that requires you to stay out of the usual motions that would work on most other VRs and focus instead on setting up traps based off of the Bal pilots movements and tactics. I'd like to know what makes Bal her worst matchup, and in turn, what makes her his easiest. For me its always been Cypher and Dordray that present the biggest hurdles for Angelan.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by PingPong » 25 May 2009, 11:55

DeepInTheHops wrote:
Davo87 wrote:Raiden gives me problems aswell, so unless there is secret strat Im missing out on to make that 6.5.
Really? In my experience Raiden is the easiest VR to beat with Specineff. He's big and slow so it's a lot easier to hit him with CW attacks. And unlike Dordray his attacks don't go through obstacles (except the laser cages), so it's a lot safer to play at mid to long range.

One guy I played against today did the Armor Break right off the bat both rounds. I wonder if he does that often or just because I was using Specineff.

Those 7.0 matches against Specineff seem kind of high, but since I'm not an advanced player my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight. :)
as a Raiden player i would have to say that i really have to work hard against Specineff. it's prolly due to the fact that i need to keep moving so i don't get by his wisps or his CW. even then getting hit by either sucks...

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by MentholMoose » 26 May 2009, 12:20

Considering the diversity of characters, it's not too surprising that at very advanced skill levels, some are at a disadvantage. But keep in mind that the charts are for highly experienced players at near equal skill levels. If these conditions are not met, this info is not very applicable or even useful.

I never really put much credence into an actual tier or ranking for the characters. At most, I only ever thought about VR popularity. In any case, consider the difference between Striker (the "worst" "real" VR) and Specineff (the "best"). Based on the numbers, among a field of top players with an equal distribution of VRs, on average, a top level player using the best VR will win about 34% more matches than a top level player using the worst VR... this doesn't seem that bad.

So although the charts include an actual tier, the match-up numbers are mainly of interest. However, the main use that I can see is to get you to think about something you're probably thinking of anyway: various match-ups for your favorite VR. If you're playing the game, you don't really need a chart to tell you which VRs give you trouble, but you can use the chart to get some additional ideas (especially regarding VRs you don't use).

It's great to see some discussion about specific match-ups. If you're having trouble against a particular VR, chances are others are, too, even if they don't use the same VR as you, and strategies might still be applicable.
DooM wrote:I'd like to know what makes Bal her worst matchup, and in turn, what makes her his easiest.
From looking at the Bal data, it looks like Bal is mainly weakest against VRs that can effectively neutralize mines. Based on my experience, a Grys-Vok player can shield himself by using numerous bomb attacks to wipe out a lot of mines. So, a Grys-Vok player won't be especially disrupted by mines and can go about implementing various Grys-Vok strategies.

As for Angelan, one of her key defensive characteristics is V.Armor (only slightly lower than #1 Dordray, in VER.5.45 at least), which is completely ineffective against mines. I'm not an Angelan player, but I can guess that the relatively higher requirement of dodging mines is highly disruptive to Angelan strategies.

From what I've seen of good Angelan players, they are very good at avoiding direct attacks. For example, as a Grys-Vok player, I use timed forward or forward-diagonal dashing cRW fairly effectively against most VRs, but it is especially ineffective against a good Angelan. Similarly, based on the numbers, Angelan versus Specineff is an even match, and Specineff is the king of direct attacks (virtually completely lacking effective indirect attacks). So, I rarely use direct attacks, and instead opt to use Grys-Vok's ample indirect options for attacking Angelan, which I've found to be effective. Bal is the king of indirect attack strategies, so I suspect Angelan may have trouble with such strategies in general.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Schooly D » 26 May 2009, 12:44

MentholMoose wrote: As for Angelan, one of her key defensive characteristics is V.Armor (only slightly lower than #1 Dordray, in VER.5.45 at least), which is completely ineffective against mines. I'm not an Angelan player, but I can guess that the relatively higher requirement of dodging mines is highly disruptive to Angelan strategies.
On top of that, Bal's RW also can't be deflected by V. Armor. Or can it?
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by MentholMoose » 26 May 2009, 13:17

Schooly D wrote:
MentholMoose wrote: As for Angelan, one of her key defensive characteristics is V.Armor (only slightly lower than #1 Dordray, in VER.5.45 at least), which is completely ineffective against mines. I'm not an Angelan player, but I can guess that the relatively higher requirement of dodging mines is highly disruptive to Angelan strategies.
On top of that, Bal's RW also can't be deflected by V. Armor. Or can it?
Good point, I don't think it can. Which Bal attacks can be deflected, anyway? I don't think CW can, nor cCW.

Also, now that I think of it, one key aspect of my anti-Bal strategy is to keep lock-on nearly 100% of the time, to see what attacks are coming (especially those pesky cCW). I can do this well with Grys... using bombs to clear mines, I can relatively freely do dash attacks, jump cancels, or generally just rotating while walking. How possible is this with Angelan? Mainly I can think of rotating during jumping attacks, since Ang does have good jumping capabilities. But what about any effective dash attacks? There is always the jump-cancel, but any momentary freeze time against Bal is bad news if you can't clear mines.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DZef » 26 May 2009, 17:06

I'd like to know what makes Bal her worst matchup, and in turn, what makes her his easiest.
I don't have much experience with playing either one, but from what I have read, it comes down to two things:

1. One of Bal's mines does almost the same damage on Angelan as Angelan's double-dragon hit on Bal

2. One single mine will shatter Angelan's mirror, letting the rest of the mines float freely

It basically comes down to attrition. At a really high level, both Bal and Angelan will hardly ever make themselves vulnerable, and you would assume attacks like reflective/rapid laser and Angelan's RW won't hit. Then it comes down to who is likely to suffer a hit in a game of ice pillar+dragon vs. a mine field. When two high level players go at it, they go into battle prepared to end the match in a draw with 100% HP left, and they work from there.

The damage adjustment is really curious in some cases. Back in the OMG days, I always found it was odd how much damage Viper II does to Bal. One homebeam hit does close to 50%, which was nasty even compared to Raiden laser.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Davo87 » 28 May 2009, 07:46

The damage adjustment is really curious in some cases. Back in the OMG days, I always found it was odd how much damage Viper II does to Bal. One homebeam hit does close to 50%, which was nasty even compared to Raiden laser.
BBB's armour from OMG was strange. Close range or direct attack types just destroys Bal. Other times his armour feels like a medium.
1. One of Bal's mines does almost the same damage on Angelan as Angelan's double-dragon hit on Bal
Curious as to which mine does such crazy dmg. Low speed, low HP armor, no bombs makes it harder for Angelan. Her HP armour is quite fragile. I.e: Raiden's standing CW then cCW = death.

DeepInTheHops: With Raiden, I had trouble dealing with players who use tilted laser cages at midrange and tried to dash the opposite end to where Raiden is facing, tho I got outpaced by his setup first. His napalm ground bombs are also annoying, at longrange I barely see it at all! I seem to be able to get some ground when fighting faraway and punish every laser cage attempt which better players cancel out of it.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DZef » 28 May 2009, 19:07

Curious as to which mine does such crazy dmg. Low speed, low HP armor, no bombs makes it harder for Angelan. Her HP armour is quite fragile. I.e: Raiden's standing CW then cCW = death.
I don't think it's so much as a mine does nasty damage, but more like Bal's increased HP reduces double dragon damage in relation to the full HP. Here is the HP adjustment chart:

http://oratanners.hp.infoseek.co.jp/life.html

A new version got added to the bottom, with gradations marking relative ranking of total HP (blue being low). Against Ange, Bal's total HP gets boosted to 1100 from his 900 or so average. At the same time, Angelan's total HP is only 750, which is not exactly on the high side.

OMG's BBB might have seen this sort of adjustment as well. His armor was simply paper grade against Viper II, but his resistance against Apharmd shotgun was ridiculous, while his machinegun CW did nasty damage on Apharmd.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DooM » 30 May 2009, 00:39

Forgive me for the lengthy response, but I felt it was necessary to address alot of really good points you guys brought up by my question. Thanks to everyone who shared their insights with me, hopefully it proved helpful to others and maybe sparked some other questions or ideas in the process. :D
MentholMoose wrote:
DooM wrote:I'd like to know what makes Bal her worst matchup, and in turn, what makes her his easiest.
From looking at the Bal data, it looks like Bal is mainly weakest against VRs that can effectively neutralize mines. Based on my experience, a Grys-Vok player can shield himself by using numerous bomb attacks to wipe out a lot of mines. So, a Grys-Vok player won't be especially disrupted by mines and can go about implementing various Grys-Vok strategies..
This is pretty much what I was thinking as well, though I am unsure how the data supports mine neutralization in the cases of Fei-Yen and Raiden? (Two of Bal's worst matches.) I suppose in the case of Fei-Yen she can run really fast away from the mines and probly blow up alot with her little handgun. As a Fei-Yen player, however, I personally get hit by alot more mines to the back than I usually do when I'm Angelan, simply because its harder to keep track of Bals E.R.Ls when zipping about so much.

For Angelan, its certaintly true that the mines can be a real hassle. It certaintly causes her to play her game differently. Unlike V.R.s such as Grys-Vok, who can sweep the field of enough mines to go about his usual strategies for the most part (as you mentioned). So thats certainly a point in Bal's favor.

For Angelan i'd say her best defense against mines is to 1 pay attention to E.R.L. placement. So that not only can you have an idea of where the mines will come from, but also so that you can position obstacles between yourself and the E.R.Ls so that the terrain works for you. I personally find snowflakes and ice shots to also be really good against mines, as long as you keep them away from your back. Double Dragons will also wipe the field of any mine they come in contact with, which can be really nice as they'll often circle the stage in two passess.

Angelan's air control also goes a long way in avoiding mines IMO.
MentholMoose wrote:As for Angelan, one of her key defensive characteristics is V.Armor (only slightly lower than #1 Dordray, in VER.5.45 at least), which is completely ineffective against mines. I'm not an Angelan player, but I can guess that the relatively higher requirement of dodging mines is highly disruptive to Angelan strategies.
From personal exp. its not so much the disruption caused by the mines that hurts Angelan's game, as in, its harder to set up traps and the like with so many things floating about. And more so the fact that Angelan has a much smaller life score than most. So when you do get hit, which you will vs. a good Bal, it hurts alot more than it would other VRs.

Curiously, the data lists the matchup of Dor vs. Bal as much closer to being even at 6/10 in Bals favor. With slower average speed and worse air control than Angelan, I can only imagine that what saves Dor is his higher HP value and damge output? I don't play Dor so i can't speak from exp, but I imagine he has an even harder time than Angelan when it comes to dodging/dealing with Bals mines?

As an Angelan pilot I pretty much just assume that anything that hits me is capable of hurting me. Alot. And i think this quality carries over to a lot of other Angelan pilots as well. The mating of a mech with high V.armor with low HP is sort of like having an unreliable safety net. Its nice and all that its there, but i wouldn't put my faith in it. This constant sense of "I can't afford to get hit" runs deep for Angelan pilots, and I think it tends to make them a bit overly cautious. Usually resulting in a somewhat stronger foundation of dodging, movement, and defensive skills than I think you usually see among other VRs that can grin and bear it through more firepower (i.e Dordray, Raiden.)

Then again, I pilot Fei-Yen as my standby, so i guess you could say i don't like to get hit in general. :D
MentholMoose wrote:
Schooly D wrote: On top of that, Bal's RW also can't be deflected by V. Armor. Or can it?
Good point, I don't think it can. Which Bal attacks can be deflected, anyway? I don't think CW can, nor cCW.
Bal's RW rings shred right through V.armor. In fact, I can't think of a single attack of Bals that is deflectable. In Angelan's case however, you can use both snowflakes and her ice shot to cancel out certain versions of Bal's rings.
MentholMoose wrote: Also, now that I think of it, one key aspect of my anti-Bal strategy is to keep lock-on nearly 100% of the time, to see what attacks are coming (especially those pesky cCW). I can do this well with Grys... using bombs to clear mines, I can relatively freely do dash attacks, jump cancels, or generally just rotating while walking. How possible is this with Angelan? Mainly I can think of rotating during jumping attacks, since Ang does have good jumping capabilities. But what about any effective dash attacks? There is always the jump-cancel, but any momentary freeze time against Bal is bad news if you can't clear mines.
I can only speak from my own experiences but for me keeping a near 100% lock is pretty key to Angelan's game in general, and its pretty rare for me to not have the enemy VR in sights for most of the match (barring Cypher, who is all but impossible for me to nail down all the time with his frequent air trips over my head. > . >) Not only is it crucial to have a lock for defensive purposes as Angelan (dodging, setting up mirrors) but I find it to be very important as well for offensive purposes (herding, setting up positioning, traps.) Angelan's good air control plus the jump-cancel is usually enough for me to do this while still setting up enough stuff of my own while dealing with Bals mines. I find that Angelan's most worthwhile dash attacks are properly timed ice columns and forward RWs, both of which are workable against Bal, though I wouldn't consider them crucial to the matchup.
DZef wrote:
I don't have much experience with playing either one, but from what I have read, it comes down to two things:

1. One of Bal's mines does almost the same damage on Angelan as Angelan's double-dragon hit on Bal

2. One single mine will shatter Angelan's mirror, letting the rest of the mines float freely
Versus Bal Angelan's double dragon strips away approximately 25% of his total if he's moving and 45 if he is stationary, something I wasn't aware of until going into training and checking it out. In fact, I was unaware a stationary target took more dmg and would like to know if this is the norm for alot of attacks?

Not sure how much a single mine does when it hits Angelan, but I'm pretty sure ive never seen it knock off 1/4 of my life.
DZef wrote: It basically comes down to attrition. At a really high level, both Bal and Angelan will hardly ever make themselves vulnerable, and you would assume attacks like reflective/rapid laser and Angelan's RW won't hit. Then it comes down to who is likely to suffer a hit in a game of ice pillar+dragon vs. a mine field. When two high level players go at it, they go into battle prepared to end the match in a draw with 100% HP left, and they work from there.
I firmly agree with this and believe its the reason why the matchup will always be in Bal's favor. I suppose I have yet to have my Angelan so firmly shut down by a Bal to understand an 80% win percantage in bal's favor, but i certainly think overall the ball is in his court.
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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by Davo87 » 30 May 2009, 04:27


Versus Bal Angelan's double dragon strips away approximately 25% of his total if he's moving and 45 if he is stationary, something I wasn't aware of until going into training and checking it out. In fact, I was unaware a stationary target took more dmg and would like to know if this is the norm for alot of attacks?

Not sure how much a single mine does when it hits Angelan, but I'm pretty sure ive never seen it knock off 1/4 of my life.
Rather than bcos of moving, is it simply bcos Bal gets hit by one dragon instead of both while moving? Its much harder to get hit by both unless u r really frozen.

After looking at the chart, Bal Baros and Bal Bados have different HP scaling... Is Baros different in any other sense aside from HP?

Image 5.66 chart, pasted from the link.

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Re: Tier list thoughts?

Post by DooM » 30 May 2009, 09:57

Davo87 wrote:

Versus Bal Angelan's double dragon strips away approximately 25% of his total if he's moving and 45 if he is stationary, something I wasn't aware of until going into training and checking it out. In fact, I was unaware a stationary target took more dmg and would like to know if this is the norm for alot of attacks?

Not sure how much a single mine does when it hits Angelan, but I'm pretty sure ive never seen it knock off 1/4 of my life.
Rather than bcos of moving, is it simply bcos Bal gets hit by one dragon instead of both while moving? Its much harder to get hit by both unless u r really frozen.
I thought this as well, as it would make a logical amount of sense. After the dragon hit bal in training, however, both fled the screen. Which made me assume that both must have hit. But i suppose I've never taken the time to notice if after a successful hit, if the other remaining dragon flees the scene by default? Which I think is due to the fact that im so used to seeing only one dragon, as the other often hits an obstacles/gets blown up/ etc. Leaving me to assume that the dragon only goes away once it's been dealt with. Does anyone else know if this is the case?
Last edited by DooM on 30 May 2009, 10:14, edited 2 times in total.
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