Prototype Raiden sucks.

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Sixfortyfive
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Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Sixfortyfive » 03 Oct 2009, 22:23

Discuss. Or not. Took me a long time to realize that Raiden's full CW actually does twice as much damage as the half-cancel version. Is that true for all VRs or just Tangram because it's such a huge target and both lasers actually connect all the time?

Who's bored enough to 1cc the game with every VR on Very Hard? Me, that's who.

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MentholMoose
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by MentholMoose » 04 Oct 2009, 02:36

Sixfortyfive wrote:Who's bored enough to 1cc the game with every VR on Very Hard? Me, that's who.
I did it a bunch of times on the US Dreamcast version, although it was my job and not out of boredom. :shock: After doing that (for any game, not just VOOT), I don't want to do it again. ;)
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Temjin747K
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Temjin747K » 03 Sep 2010, 15:19

I think not. It depends on who's playing as it. Appearance-wise, the XBV/DD-05/02 looks cooler with its white-with-flames color scheme and the dual ZIG-18 bazooka launchers!

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Fredo
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Fredo » 04 Sep 2010, 01:04

When I was playing on Dreamcast, I wanted to unlock thos 2 prototype VRs without knowing how **** they were.

That was really a challenge because of the fog mode because you could not see anything and you had to know the topography of the stage and keep looking at the distance indicator to locate precisely the enemy VR. That was a challenge and the only you got was those two crappy VR. Well the color sheme is cool but they just suck.

The Dreamcast version also had the Infight mode which was very interesting because you could only use Melee Attacks. It was pretty unfaire because the CPU was able to shoot, but in versus mode where both players were only using CQC, it made really impressive fights.
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VOOT: Raiden, Apharmd C, Apharmd B, Cypher, Temjin

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Temjin747K
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Temjin747K » 04 Sep 2010, 09:36

you're saying that it sucks because it can't air-dash. What do you expect, it is a PROTOTYPE

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Fredo
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Fredo » 04 Sep 2010, 11:59

I'm saying it sucks because it has no airdash, no vertical turn, no turbo weapon and because I spent several hours trying to unlock that.

Prototype or not, it was quite hard to unlock it and you deserve something better than just some OMG-like VRs.
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VOOT: Raiden, Apharmd C, Apharmd B, Cypher, Temjin

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MentholMoose
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by MentholMoose » 04 Sep 2010, 12:01

Fredo wrote:The Dreamcast version also had the Infight mode which was very interesting because you could only use Melee Attacks. It was pretty unfaire because the CPU was able to shoot, but in versus mode where both players were only using CQC, it made really impressive fights.
I never liked or used it much, and the group I played with was heavily into CC. We just used a gentleman's agreement to not shoot each other. The problem with disabling shooting is that you have a legitimate need to shoot during CC. Ducking, for example, requires it, as do various quick CC attacks.
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Temjin747K
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Temjin747K » 04 Sep 2010, 15:19

you're just not very good with it, that's all

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MentholMoose
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by MentholMoose » 04 Sep 2010, 16:37

Huh?
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Temjin747K
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Temjin747K » 04 Sep 2010, 17:53

kidding. how hard could getting the code be anyways?

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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by MentholMoose » 04 Sep 2010, 19:00

Temjin747K wrote:kidding. how hard could getting the code be anyways?
Hehe OK. Well it's fairly difficult when you're new to VOOT. You have to beat the game in fog mode without continuing with Raiden to unlock prototype Raiden (or with Temjin for prototype Temjin).
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Porcupine
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Porcupine » 21 Jan 2014, 16:28

Vash made an interesting comment to me yesterday. After I brought him up to date with the new VR hacks, he wondered why I never found Prototype Temjin and Raiden in VOOT. I had forgotten they existed, but I think I did search values beyond Bradtos and Tangram and didn't find anything. Still, I would have expected to find them, and if so they would have a higher chance of being useable in multiplayer than Bradtos (Training and Watch only) and Tangram (unplayable, needs space stage). Though I would still bet against it, as I suspect the lack of a lobby VR thumbnail causes the freezing issue. Perhaps I will search for them sometime.

I don't use Raiden but I think I can explain the phenomena in the topic post. It's the damage cap and/or invincibility frames phenomenas. All VRs have a maximum amount of damage they can take in a single frame. It is slightly more than one half beam of Raiden's laser, and less than or equal to one half beam of Raiden's RT spiral laser.

As for invincibility frames, after any attack hits you, you will be invincible for at least some time afterwards. The length of time will depend on what kind of attack hit you: knock down, pushback stun, or the short flicker after a piddly shot. So for multi-shot attacks like Raiden's laser or Cypher's 4-way missiles, the damage can vary unstably depending on how many hits you took in the exact same frame. If the lasers hit even one frame apart, only one laser will damage. If both lasers hit at the same time, both lasers will count but the damage cap will also apply and mitigate the damage increase.

So with Tangram the two possible explanations are: it's either that his damage cap is different, or it could be that your lasers are hitting him one frame apart and Tangram has no invincibility frames.

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MentholMoose
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by MentholMoose » 21 Jan 2014, 17:24

Porcupine wrote: made an interesting comment to me yesterday. After I brought him up to date with the new VR hacks, he wondered why I never found Prototype Temjin and Raiden in VOOT. I had forgotten they existed, but I think I did search values beyond Bradtos and Tangram and didn't find anything. Still, I would have expected to find them, and if so they would have a higher chance of being useable in multiplayer than Bradtos (Training and Watch only) and Tangram (unplayable, needs space stage).
Isn't XBLA 5.66 based on Arcade 5.66 rather than DC 5.45? If so the prototypes wouldn't be in XBLA 5.66 since they were only in DC 5.45. Even if it were based on DC 5.45 I think since it is an XBLA-only game the developers would try to optimize the download size by removing unused game assets.
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Porcupine
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Porcupine » 22 Jan 2014, 00:35

The link in the topic post appears to be of XBLA 5.66 and the claim I see everywhere is that the prototypes are in 5.66 but can only be used in Arcade single-player mode. After Vash reminded me, I do vaguely recall that I did originally bother to unlock and try them in my main VOOT save file.

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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by MentholMoose » 22 Jan 2014, 10:43

Oops never mind, they are indeed in XBLA 5.66. Let us know if you can unlock them for other modes.
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Porcupine
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Porcupine » 08 Aug 2014, 14:38

I woke up this morning and decided to fiddle with this again. It occurred to me to study VOOT replay files of me using Prototype Temjin and Raiden in Arcade mode (and along the way possibly fighting Bradtos, Tangram, and CPU Ajim) to try to determine their data values. I had done a similar thing with Force replay files to determine that the red-visored shadow VRs could not be selected for normal multiplayer battles (because the red-visor as well as the damage properties arise solely as a result of a Mission parameter in the replay file).

Unfortunately, I think Prototype Temjin and Raiden are in the same boat. So far, it appears that they are identified as normal Temjin and Raiden in the replay files. The game probably changes them to the prototypes (or CPU strong Ajim, or water/space Bal) based on Mission or stage parameters, or a standalone flag, which I haven't completely deciphered yet, but must be stored in the replay file somewhere.

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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Porcupine » 14 Aug 2015, 18:46

Haven't done much more due to having low hopes for being able to do anything useful, but got bored lately so now there is a human-vs-human replay of Bal-Keros vs Angelan in Tangram's space stage uploaded. Both players are pretty skilled and are recognizable by their color scheme, but moving the inputs to space stage results in a totally different fight. It still kinda appears competitive even though both players are essentially mashing blind. Surprisingly, Angelan has a unique, unused space winning animation!

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Porcupine
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Re: Prototype Raiden sucks.

Post by Porcupine » 06 Nov 2015, 13:28

I have recently done a lot of testing on this and other things, so here's probably the final verdict on the prototypes.

I found the prototype flag, it is in a standalone single byte in the replay file, prior to each battle. It is after the stage parameters, but before the battle information (initial HP followed by keystrokes). Interestingly, HP is stored in the replay file so this provides an easy way to extract the health table, if desired. You can even extract the health for CPU Ajim (2000, at least when fighting Raiden) and the health tables for Bradtos and Tangram. Note that the prototype flag can be turned on or off for each battle in Arcade or Score Attack mode. This is necessary because if you die in Arcade mode, you can continue and change VRs, and the replay shows all the winning battles.

The prototype byte is stored as 1???0000 with the first "?" being the prototype flag for your VR, when you are on the DNA side. The second "?" is the prototype flag for the opponent VR and by editing replays you can turn both VRs into prototypes. This also works in vs mode replays. The third "?" is the flag for CPU strong Ajim. You can only turn the opponent in Arcade mode into strong Ajim (though if you overwrite his keystrokes with your human ones in the replay, I guess you could imagine you are him). There is no Ajim flag for both players. The remaining "0" flags do nothing. If you change the first "1" flag, the replay won't load. The game will not freeze, just nothing happens when you select the replay. CPU strong Ajim has no VR model identifier. He does not use the VR value of weak human Ajim. He is identified as the VR you would have fought (Angelan, for example) together with the Ajim flag, then when the battle starts he kills and replaces the normal VR. I tried setting the Ajim flag in a vs mode replay. The match started but froze on the first frame.

Any VR can be turned into a prototype, with the associated techniques and maneuvers disabled, not just Temjin and Raiden. However, only Temjin and Raiden will gain a special color. If you turn a custom color VR into a prototype, including Temjin and Raiden, they will retain their custom color. So you can make your own unofficial yellow prototype color for other VRs. To "use" these prototypes in vs mode, you can pretend you are a prototype by not performing any of the disabled actions, then edit the replay afterwards to set the prototype flag. If you obeyed the rules, the replay should not change. If you violated the rules, the replay will get desynced and subsequent events will be thrown off.

There aren't many empty bytes in the color customization files that could possibly store any secret information, so I tried changing them in the hopes of being able to unlock selectable prototypes, but most did nothing. Changing any of the three empty bytes preceding the VR model byte caused the in-game customizer to revert to default color when opening the file, though the VR model was preserved, and the custom colors still worked in matches. I did discover that setting the VR model byte to "80" or above results in Random VR, just like the one in the normal game menus, which chooses any VR except for Ajim and bosses. Setting any lower value that is not a defined VR causes a black screen freeze. Inserting Random VR into a replay file also causes a black screen.

I noticed that Bal is always specified as Bal-Bados inside of replay files, even in space or water stages, so I tried editing a replay to insert Bal-Keros into a normal stage. The match started but froze on the first frame.

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