Team Battle or Tower Challenge

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Porcupine
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Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 31 Jan 2016, 12:37

With the success of Schooly's 1st Winter Tournament, I'd like to follow up with a mini-gathering or two. Not a tournament, but something more interesting than random battles. I suggest a Team Battle and/or Tower Challenge, both of which I proposed before but we never got around to doing. Japanese players do these too. I'd like everyone interested to vote on which they'd prefer, as well as give suggestions on any details or rules they'd like to see.

My idea for our western version of a Tower Challenge is that we host a lobby and various Japanese challengers try to defeat us all in a row, in order from bottom to top. Depending which of us decide to participate, we could roughly go in order of skill (we can use the final standings from Schooly's tournament), and/or the order of AI characters encountered in Score Attack mode.

Given the players currently around, our Tower could roughly look like this:

Cypher (Schooly D)
Temjin (PhantomPhotonX)
Angelan (Zaarock)
Fei-Yen (Porcupine)
Grys-Vok (MentholMoose or FlyExponent)
Stein-Vok or 10/80 SP (VarryoChoco)
Temjin (Shamanic Beat)

If we don't get enough Japanese challengers, we can defect from the Tower and challenge it ourselves. If we get a lot of western participants, we could form a second Tower, perhaps moving someone from our main Tower to be its boss (PhantomPhotonX is out of place with his character position).

If we do Team Battle, as before I propose the teams be split into upcoming players (Team Porcupine) vs traditional powerhouses (Team Schooly D). When players lose, a teammate replaces them, until a whole team is killed. Since anikingVOOT isn't around anymore I'd like to add a twist. All players can enter multiple VRs, each of which count as a separate "person". If necessary we can limit the number of VRs a player can enter. Or perhaps impose a rule of only one VR representative per team. Here's what I envision the teams could be:

Team Porcupine
Porcupine (Fei-Yen, Temjin, Grys-Vok, Angelan)
Zaarock (Cypher, Angelan)
FlyExponent (Grys-Vok)
Shamanic Beat (Temjin)
OE Exorcet (Cypher, Raiden)
VarryoChoco (Stein-Vok, Raiden, 10/80 SP)
VOTwinstick (Temjin)
Palmpoa (Apharmd B)
anyone else we can dig up, from people we've played casual matches with, including rookies

Team Schooly D
Schooly D (Cypher, Apharmd B, Apharmd S, Apharmd C)
PhantomPhotonX (Temjin)
MentholMoose (Grys-Vok)
DaveRudolph (Specineff)
Fredo (Cypher)
Sixfortyfive (Fei-Yen)
TE Anubis (Fei-Yen)
anyone else who hasn't played in a long time, or that I've never met prior to Schooly's tournament, including rookies

Also, no use of illegal drugs and participants must pass a basic test of intelligence demonstrating that they understand how to navigate game menus and fight correct opponents. Despite being one of the most powerful beings in the universe, Majin Buu recently failed to pass and was disqualified. We actually have decent players who would probably fail this requirement (holystarofdeath, dragon103).

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SoulGuitarist
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by SoulGuitarist » 31 Jan 2016, 14:56

Hmmm well. I would personally prefer maybe a team tournament but if I had to choose, I would definitely choose Team Battle.

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by PhantomPhotonX » 31 Jan 2016, 19:13

I do like the idea of having something more interesting than random battles. But my first thought was, if any of us want to get better, would it make more sense for us to play in a Japanese battle tower instead of having Japanese players play in ours? Of course, that assumes that they still do them, and the time and language barriers would be more of a concern. But that would appeal to me personally a bit more.

As far as teams go, I think it would be more fun to have the teams be more balanced with a good mix of veterans and newcomers. I don't think we would want to intimidate the newcomers too much or make it too boring for the veterans.

But I personally don't think we need to make it that complicated. I feel like if we can establish a VOOT night with a regular time (which we've tried before with various levels of success), even if it's not every week but every other week, and maybe have someone stream matches while we play, it would give spectators who aren't able to play a chance to watch and learn, and it might make the matches more interesting for the players too. Just having one or two Japanese players in the group always makes the games more fun and interesting. We could try to make it a little more structured by adding a round-robin component like we did in the group stage of our winter tourney, or something to that effect.
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by shamanic_beat » 31 Jan 2016, 20:01

I'm up for VOOT nights. Zaarock, Porcupine, a few others and I have been doing VOOT days more or less every other weekend for a while now.
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Porcupine
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 31 Jan 2016, 23:20

We've already been having lengthy VO nights every Saturday for over a year. That will be continuing. This is just something extra for one of those nights, hopefully enticing Schooly and MentholMoose to participate. When we first started doing this with anikingVOOT we had tons of Japanese players joining us, but eventually they lost interest. Most stopped playing in general.

I must admit, our biggest failure is that we cannot keep any newcomers. We've found a bunch, usually on weekdays, but most only play a few days then we never see them again. We have trouble getting them to deliberately group together on Saturday. We often stream, but I have almost no hope for western spectators ever joining because of that.

Neoken used to tell me when Japanese players held towers but he's stopped playing. They may not hold them anymore. If we ever find out about one, I say we barge in, but I suspect they pop up in secret and without notice. A couple times, in large Japanese parties, I was invited to participate in similar impromptu games. (They would speak to each other in Japanese, wondering if Porcupine was going to challenge the right person, or be an idiot).

The Japanese towers I saw were brutal; few people got past the first couple rounds. We'd just get stuck on the first guy and kicked out of the lobby. I actually think our version would be more fun for them, because Japanese players of varying skill could come in and have varying levels of success. We just have to communicate the idea to them.

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Zaarock » 02 Feb 2016, 08:12

I'd join both events but more interested in the Tower Challenge. Maybe it could be arranged via Soyoka or other people we know.

I think fighting the japanese players more often will improve all of our skill much faster than staying in our small group. The game has been out on XBLA for over 6 years, an opponent being japanese should be no excuse for losing when most top players are willing to share techniques and even strategy with english players. That's assuming western players can get matches in against various opponents for experience. Might be a little too late, looks like the japanese community is shrinking this year.

I'll try to be online on weekends around VOOT Night, but no guarantee for the normal time on saturday (it's 5-6am sunday for me)

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Schooly D » 03 Feb 2016, 14:02

I'd be more interested in a team battle than a tower challenge, I think. Joining a Japanese tower challenge might be fun, but I think hosting one among ourselves presents too many difficulties. Chief among them: (1) a 7-person ladder would necessarily consume all our top talent, leaving few people who could conceivably get through it, and (2) there'd be a lot of waiting for the challengers and for the people near the top of the ladder.

I think a team battle sounds fun. We could designate two captains and take turns picking teams, gym class style.
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Porcupine
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 03 Feb 2016, 20:21

Thanks for all the responses. I've decided we will have our 1st Team Battle sometime later this month. The teams will be the ones in my topic post, however future team battles will probably use different teams as suggested. I'll make a splash graphic soon with further details. My plan is to use our Team Battle graphic to subtly advertise a Tower Challenge a month later, to the Japanese players.

I'd also like for as many "newcomers" to participate as possible, especially everyone who participated in Schooly D's winter tournament. Don't worry, it will be balanced, with some on each team. The rules should be such that it is strategically advantageous for the newcomers to battle each other first, as we slowly work our way up to the boss fights. ;)

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by shamanic_beat » 04 Feb 2016, 17:39

>Upcoming player
>Shamanic Beat


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Zaarock
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Zaarock » 04 Feb 2016, 19:08

shamanic_beat wrote:>Upcoming player
>Shamanic Beat
You'll become seabasshunter this year or die to ajim I'll maintain a scrubby Angelan. we are the upcoming players.

@Porcupine, remember to announce the date well before the event so people have time to think about joining. A lot of people only check the forum every few weeks.

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Porcupine
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 05 Feb 2016, 19:54

ImageImage

Updated the image for better quality Japanese font. I figured out who the last guy is, that's aniking, but he isn't around lately so I didn't write his name yet.
Last edited by Porcupine on 01 Jun 2017, 19:11, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by shamanic_beat » 07 Feb 2016, 12:30

Schooly's head looks kinda lewd.
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by VarryoSchwert » 08 Feb 2016, 11:56

Nonono, this is the team battle what we are looking for.
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Porcupine
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 09 Feb 2016, 16:51

Now that the dates and teams are mostly set, let's flesh out the rules and organization. As before, everyone feel free to put forth different ideas.

I'd like those who plan to participate to write a message in this thread, although registration is not mandatory. People can just show up for the event. They will probably be assigned to a team based on the criteria of whether they have been playing recently, or appeared from the shadows. We may also consider factors like team balance. (I don't think we should allow players in Japan for our first battle).

However, if you don't "register" here, you can only enter one VR. As a small bonus, anyone entering only one VR does not have to announce it. They can pick their VR when their first match starts. (You may register and announce one VR, but you won't be obligated to use it).

Anyone who registers here may enter multiple VRs, each counting as a separate contestant, but they must announce their choices. Please don't register VRs you don't like, or don't use well. As people start registering, Schooly and I may negotiate with each other to limit players with too many VRs.

I suggest matches to be best 2 out of 3 games. After a lot of thought, I think the only play rule we need is that a winning player stays out and can't change VR, while the opposing team sends in any available contestant of their choice. The battle ends when all contestants on a team are dead. (Most likely, this battle will come down to whether or not anyone can kill Schooly's Cypher. My biggest worry is that Schooly will decide to play first and sweep everyone, meaninglessly beating down on rookies in the end. :twisted: But strategically, I think it makes more sense to take pressure off his ace, and give PPX, MentholMoose, or his own backup VRs a chance to eliminate threats on the opposing team first. So hopefully matches with be balanced, opening with rookies and building up).

We will probably need two parties to hold everyone. One party will be the Team Battle lobby, with one permanent streamer who is unlikely to die early (Schooly D or Zaarock, I guess). Players who are killed, or probably won't be called upon for a while, can go into the second party or public lobby and play casual matches.

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Zaarock
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Zaarock » 10 Feb 2016, 03:19

If people can register as multiple VR how can you guarantee the teams will be of same size. This also penalizes people who have only concentrated on learning one VR, which is very stupid IMO.

I'd just recommend making the rules together from scratch with Schooly. That way both teams are on equal footing & it'll make sense to everyone.

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by SoulGuitarist » 10 Feb 2016, 13:21

Darkrai100234: Temjin /Apharmd B

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Porcupine
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 10 Feb 2016, 14:25

Teams don't have to be the same size, especially for this first battle. Schooly's team is the clear favorite regardless. If we don't allow multiple VRs, all teams will consist of only the same 4 VRs used in Schooly's winter tournament. Also, it will be pointless to even have a team battle, because Schooly might as well play first, and as soon as he kills Zaarock and me, the war is over in two matches.

By allowing multiple VRs, we will have most VR being represented. Also, it will be more of a risk for Schooly to go first, as he will be unable to switch out and must run a gauntlet of several dangerous players, each using multiple VR, some of which he isn't too familiar with. I don't want to impose extra rules like "team leader must go last" unless I have to, because that takes away freedom to strategize and counterpick.

As for penalizing specialists, traditional format penalizes well rounded players. Either way someone is penalized. Besides, I use Fei-Yen 99% of the time and I don't feel penalized.

I do want to try to balance out team size for rookies and intermediate level players. Darkrai100234, I'm going to put you on Schooly's team if that's okay with you. You've played with us a ton, but since your Xbox was broken for over a year you count as a shadow player. :)

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Zaarock » 10 Feb 2016, 17:34

Porcupine wrote:Teams don't have to be the same size, especially for this first battle. Schooly's team is the clear favorite regardless. If we don't allow multiple VRs, all teams will consist of only the same 4 VRs used in Schooly's winter tournament. Also, it will be pointless to even have a team battle, because Schooly might as well play first, and as soon as he kills Zaarock and me, the war is over in two matches.

By allowing multiple VRs, we will have most VR being represented. Also, it will be more of a risk for Schooly to go first, as he will be unable to switch out and must run a gauntlet of several dangerous players, each using multiple VR, some of which he isn't too familiar with. I don't want to impose extra rules like "team leader must go last" unless I have to, because that takes away freedom to strategize and counterpick.

As for penalizing specialists, traditional format penalizes well rounded players. Either way someone is penalized. Besides, I use Fei-Yen 99% of the time and I don't feel penalized.

I do want to try to balance out team size for rookies and intermediate level players. Darkrai100234, I'm going to put you on Schooly's team if that's okay with you. You've played with us a ton, but since your Xbox was broken for over a year you count as a shadow player. :)
One side being a favorite shouldn't affect the rules for a fair competition. How is the competition going to be even if team size is not equal?

Everyone has a main but definitely not necessarily a competent sub character. Someone who is equally good with two VRs gets a massive advantage with this rule. Variety VR player already has advantage in normal US rules, he can counterpick the VR for each match. See aniking use Specineff against schooly etc. but completely voided in japanese rule. I used to only play Cypher until 2014 and really don't like this, it gimps a lot of our players like PPX, Shamanic and FlyExponent as they literally have half the chances to play/win.

Nobody here is very good with Dordray / Aph C / Ajim / 1080 / Angelan so forced representation will be sort of poor. VRs used in Winter Classic: Angelan, Apharmd B, Bal-Bados, Cypher, Fei-Yen, Grys-Vok, Raiden, Specineff, Temjin, Stein-Vok(?). That's only lacking 3 of the viable VRs (not Ajim/1080)

Schooly playing first and having to fight everyone has little tactical advantage and if he does it's his loss, why does it need a special rule. Alternatively just have a normal team battle with set player order. Team captains can just agree on the rules together and no such thing would be required anyway. If one captain decides the rules and just stacks them against his opponent (or just arbitrarily thinks them up on his own) that's just nonsense.

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Porcupine
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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by Porcupine » 10 Feb 2016, 18:06

This isn't necessarily a competition, so it doesn't have to be fair. In my mind, this is more like a mock war or RTS game (like Warcraft, with us as the heroes and peons). In war, two sides are rarely equal. In RTS games, usually races are overall balanced but one side could swarm with weaklings while another side raises a single juggernaut. At present, Schooly D is the one man army and the other team is the swarm. Though I expect that to change with time, which is why later team battles will probably be more balanced.

The goal isn't to win for yourself, the goal is only to get your team to win, and it's not even particularly serious. Having unbalanced chances to play/win is inevitable in any format, that's why eliminated players can go play casual matches in the other lobby, if they want to.

I'm actually decent with Dordray (though I'm not going to use him) and Schooly has fought me with Apharmd C. Any Fei-Yen player automatically can use Temjin and Apharmd C at similar level, if they choose to. Bal and Specineff were used by Japanese players in the previous tournament (at present we don't know if DaveRudolph will join) and we aren't likely to see Angelan unless you and I are allowed multiple VRs. There was no real Raiden/Stein-Vok in the tournament (Varryochoco didn't move in his laggy matches and quit).

Anyway, if anyone else is opposed to, or supports multiple VR, let us know and we can still change that.

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Re: Team Battle or Tower Challenge

Post by SoulGuitarist » 11 Feb 2016, 06:00

I understand. I'll be cool with that! I realized that the date is the 27th and I'll be at Winter Brawl...

Perhaps I'll grind out all the Guilty Gear practice now and pack the Xbox with me for the team battle. Lol

Choco and I played yesterday and he is very... interesting.

He quit one match against me after LITERALLY a second freeze and the rest of the match was fine. :v The other match we had was choppy and I understand quitting that but I find it terribly depressing even if the hiccups are insanely brief or the connection finally smooths up, he gives up. ;w;

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