Thoughts on a properly new VON

[Rav3nlock]

I'll pose the question first so you don't have to sift through my rambling: what would be the most perfect bundle of features and gameplay you'd consider in a Virtual On successor? It doesn't have to be realistic, of course, because no one from Sega's going to see this thread and critique on what they can and can't do.

Personally, I'd like a game where it's possible to choose from multiple generations of virtuaroids, and like Force each VR would have a few variants (at least in the later generations). I'd like them to take it one step further though and allow for customization within each VR group--so like with Raiden, I could choose between the various shoulder mounts and carried weapons and leg combos with bonuses or penalties for certain combinations. However, I don't want a fully-custom VR system, each VR series has its own thing going on to where it could just be a base for other additions/changes. However, being able to fully paint a VR, design and place emblems/text on them, and choose from a few visor colors would be nice. Even a step beyond, for a story mode, be able to customize the pilot's appearance, even if its only use is to have a memorable online lobby system (like the social aspect of Phantasy Star Online where everyone hangs out in chairs).

I'd also like for the game to have a story mode, but one that's got a bit more substance than Marz's glorified arenas. Having full areas to roam in would be nice, and giving a use to some specialty VRs would be nice--like for the VOX series, have a part of the story where you have to drill and saw your way to another area, like mining or clearing a path to make a road. Raiden was designed with anti-aircraft lasers I think, so a point of the game could be blowing the Viper series out of the sky on some bombing run. Preferably, of course, this story mode would have better voice acting and whatever.

Destructable environments. If you knock a skyscraper down lengthwise, you have a new long stretch of barrier to hide behind. If your opponent is standing in a dried up riverbed and you destroy a dam, the rushing water can sweep them away. This could be interesting as different weapons could make different VRs adept at modifying the environment (VOX again) or some strong laser beams end up just vaporizing or chewing through and object. And in timed matches, being able to eat through some of the obstacles could be very nice indeed, though it wouldn't be easy--and probably impossible for it to be truly useful in a standard arena match.

Which brings me to my next point: various one-player, versus, and co-op options that are worth it. One-player could very easily keep a decent arcade and score attack alongside the story mode, and having a variable versus mode where you can control the amount of VRs per team and type of terrain (static/destructable and arena/open) to any handicaps on any player/CPU would also be useful in some sort of Special Versus (random handicaps being slower speed, unable to lock on opponents, a random weapon/turbo/jump doesn't work or only intermittently works, not seeing life bars...), so on and so forth. While I don't imagine much in the way of a co-op story, co-op arcade and co-op side games/minigames could be done. Same with versus for minigames, of course (Cypher races, Vox Bob mining challenges, who can get the most points for destroying their surroundings, Apharmd hand-to-hand fights, so on). The VRs are already so diverse, and having sub-games that spotlight their strengths and all that would be great.

The final thing I can think of right off the bat would be in games outside of the arcade and traditional versus, being able to enter different viewing modes for different purposes. Such as entering into a cockpit view with a sort of Mirror's Edge sort of gameplay, or an over-the-shoulder zoom used for precise targeting, so on.

I'm probably the only one who would want all that, but I think Virtual On is great at its core, and could really have a 'Universe' feel with varied gameplay so long as it also kept the arcade gameplay and such within it so people who don't want to do a story can always have the arcade mode and versus and stuff to fall back on. To sum it up, I want Virtual On's next game to branch out in a bunch of different ways, and still keep intact what made it fun in the arcades.

[Zaarock]

Destructible environments sounds like a pretty useless and too complex idea to be useful or have much relevance to virtual on. So much VRs to choose from and actually being able to choose your weapons sounds like a bit too much customization, balancing would require ridiculous amounts of work. I agree with the other ideas, though I fail to see how multiple camera angles could be useful in gameplay at all.

[Rav3nlock]

Well, those two things, destructable environments and extra camera angles are meant mostly for outside the traditional arcade stuff--things you'd see in the various kinds of story mode ideas that one could have. The destructable environments in an open area would be mostly useful in setting up one's own pseudo-arena in a fight scene, or being able to use environmental properties to one's advantage in creative ways. But I'd only expect those sorts of scenarios to even arise in a story mode or some non-arcade non-versus mode, as it could go a long way in giving a story impact if you influence the environment and not just your opponent. Example: You're defending a city from some other faction and you have to take care in what you do as your weapons can damage buildings as much as anything else. It does require some hefty coding, sure, but even if just partially done for certain areas it could provide an extra challenge, which is what I'd hope a story mode would offer.

The other camera modes, that's really just something I like, though again I wouldn't expect them (or want them) in a standard arcade or versus mode. But the camera variants often lead to control variants, which would lend themselves to, once again, other sub-games within the story and what-not. Being able to look over Temjin's shoulder and fire precise beam rifles to destroy a lock on a hatch, for example. But as for their use otherwise? Well, there isn't any. I tend to like useless things if just to have the option to use them.

As for the amount of VRs, I figured not everyone would be a fan of it, but it'd be my preference. Again, it could be something limited to story or special modes while not affecting traditional arcade/versus modes, as I'd mentioned I'd like those sorts of things to remain intact.

Important note: This is all hypothetical stuff too--I am posting this under the (absurd) assumption that every single thing in my initial post works flawlessly and they actually crammed it all in. And it's just stuff I like, and I know for a fact that very little of my ideas would ever make themselves a part of the VO Universe.

I was hoping to hear from other people what sort of innovative ideas or elements would make the perfect Virtual On game for them personally. I mean sure, no one's going to agree with my points but I was hoping to hear ideas over defending my own.

[Sixfortyfive]

I generally feel that any VR customization that is more than cosmetic is a terrible idea, and I really hate the idea of multiple variants of the same VR. Virtual On is a fighting game first and foremost, and though create-a-fighter modes can be amusing time-wasters for a while, they should never be the focus.

The only thing I would like to see in further sequels are more playable characters that are just as unique as the existing ones. I'm sure other worthwhile additions could be made, but any fundamental changes would make me really pessimistic. Imagine if Border Break (Sega's new 10v10 mech combat game) was announced as a new entry in the Virtual On series. I'd bet that instead of coming across as something fresh and intriguing, people (myself included) would have been holding it up as an example of Sega forgetting the core elements that made their classics appealing in the first place and fixing something that wasn't broken.

[RVR - 42]

Oh my gosh! I totally like...have a great idea for this...and I thought I had posted it somewhere, but maybe not. >_> I don't have the time to post all of my ideas, but I definitely want the ability to choose from different generation of Vrs. It would be like a Virtual On Tournament like Tekken Tag was...no real story or anything, you know. Just put all 100+ Vrs in the game using the VOOT system[this obviously means alot of Vrs would need updates...like Turbo variants, V-Armor stats, etc]. But yea, i'll come back later and post more details but you can kinda get the jist of it there.

[Frostycyke]

I like my Virtual On as a one-on-one fighting game. Maybe a Tag system could be implemented similiar to the capcom VS series. Switching between two different VR's in the middle of the match, with unique tag team attacks and assists could be fun, but not something that I think VO needs.

Too much custimization changes the entire game up, you are no longer working on improving your skills and playing the actual game. But now you will be spending your time tweaking your stats and finding the right combinations of options to make up for the lack of skill you are not practicing on. While I do love stat tweaking character building, I'd rather keep that stuff in RPG's and sports games.

Destructible enviroment does sound like an interesting idea and it wouldn't change things too much. So instead of that VR sized tower blocking everything, after a few hits, it will just be reduced to a waist level rubble only blocking maybe melee and low attacks. However, Run away and defensive tactics will be diminished as the match drags on and that could hamper certain mechs and playstyles.

Not to take anything away from Cypher- although I'd love to as I can't stand that robot jet- there is only one ultra cool jet robot, and that is Starscream!- but I'd love to see more work on the air game. VOOM's air game was limited and it was enhanced in VOOT, with Air Dashes, what I would think would be interesting is more time spent on the Y axis, like air melee fights, Hover modes for some mechs, where they can control their elevation essitialy acting like they are on solid ground, just haging around the air with some fly/unfly/refly options (Yes, I'm stealing from Marvel vs Capcom 2).

[RVR - 42]

I like my Virtual On as a one-on-one fighting game. Maybe a Tag system could be implemented similiar to the capcom VS series. Switching between two different VR's in the middle of the match, with unique tag team attacks and assists could be fun, but not something that I think VO needs.

Too much custimization changes the entire game up, you are no longer working on improving your skills and playing the actual game. But now you will be spending your time tweaking your stats and finding the right combinations of options to make up for the lack of skill you are not practicing on. While I do love stat tweaking character building, I'd rather keep that stuff in RPG's and sports games.

Destructible enviroment does sound like an interesting idea and it wouldn't change things too much. So instead of that VR sized tower blocking everything, after a few hits, it will just be reduced to a waist level rubble only blocking maybe melee and low attacks. However, Run away and defensive tactics will be diminished as the match drags on and that could hamper certain mechs and playstyles.

Not to take anything away from Cypher- although I'd love to as I can't stand that robot jet- there is only one ultra cool jet robot, and that is Starscream!- but I'd love to see more work on the air game. VOOM's air game was limited and it was enhanced in VOOT, with Air Dashes, what I would think would be interesting is more time spent on the Y axis, like air melee fights, Hover modes for some mechs, where they can control their elevation essitialy acting like they are on solid ground, just haging around the air with some fly/unfly/refly options (Yes, I'm stealing from Marvel vs Capcom 2).

*gasps* Why you little-! Hahahha j/k! But heck yea man some aerial advancements would own. Kinda like the final fight against Tangram, you know? Think of how wild that would be to fight another Vr in that type of environment. Haha Insanity!

[MentholMoose]

The only VO I like is VOOT, so I guess I'd want a "VER.5.99" or something... basically just update VER.5.66 with a couple new, unique, and balanced VRs (e.g. Fei-Yen the Nurse ), and add a couple new, unique, and balanced arenas (e.g. Sanctuary, but at night!!). If it's going to be a "next gen" title, then refresh the graphics and make them amazing and everything, but don't let them distract from the most important aspect: gameplay.

I'm not really interested in customization in a fighting game. It's fine in an RPG, RTS, card battle, dating sim, kart racing, shooter, or other genres. Besides being a lot of work to balance properly, I don't think it's necessary anyway. One of the coolest things about VOOT is that customization isn't needed to be distinctive. Players set themselves apart by maintaining their own unique play style.

Destructible environments take away from the fantasy element of the game. If I wanted to see a gritty, realistic, destructible world, I'd look out the window! Also, I've always disliked destructible environments since invariably they are not even fully destructible! If a building can be smashed, then why is this bridge (or the dirt, or grass, or street light, or anything else) not buckling under the weight of a huge robot? Will bombs end up creating craters in the ground, that make your VR trip and fall? If the game is "real", why can't we go through the invisible boundaries and on to the next city, or just give up fighting to go "explore"?

[Rav3nlock]

Destructable environments have only not been entirely so because of limitations to capacity to make everything so. It's of course not impossible to do, it just takes time to set up everything to work like that, as the physics tend to be different for every object based on its composition, center of gravity, momentum, all that. Being unable to go to another city... can't help you there, that's just limitation on data unless they've strategically planned out the entire area for, say, a city-sized island (I'm looking at you, GTA4). The best thing a designer could do is create an area that no one wants to leave, anyways. In any case, everything in the environment can react as desired, it would just take an ambitious developer, and since this is my 'dream' VON, I'm assuming it would.

I'm not sure I see how they'd detract from the game fantasy-wise, though. The fantasy part in having it is, in fact, that while reality is destructable, it rarely is impacted by, say, giant robots stampeding through a city. The fantasy that is injected is only helped by being able to immerse yourself in the environment and realize that four-story robots are indeed able to leave an impact on their area--to me, at least.

Anyway, that's my argument for destructable environments, as ideally they can add to the fantasy of the situation via immersion of the physics. As for customization, I know I'm in the minority, but I'm sticking with it when people argue that it'll be all about stats, I don't buy it--and the physical numbers certainly don't need to be added for a system to be useful in fine-tuning playability. Overall, if you give a 'range' that a VR's specific details remain in, there's not much changing outside of what a game like Force has already done and what is somewhat seen in Marz with versions of Raiden, Temjin, and pairing VOX units (I only don't make this argument for the Apharmd because in VOOT they're designed to be quite different, but it could be applied to them in an extreme I think). Within their little circles, adjusting parts would more adjust the handling of a VR than anything speed-wise, allowing a player to fine-tune their experience based on their already-customized play style, only to support it further. All in all, I think with the options for Raiden (let's say just from Force), there'd be 3 shoulder-mounts to choose from, 3 or so handheld weapons, and 3 legs, that's about 27 different Raiden combinations which doesn't really put it on par with a whole fully-customized system but it allows for a series of VRs to remain in a single recognizable series, rather than allow people to use parts from any VR they wanted. Anyway, it's not designed to make up for lacking skill, it's designed to enhance the aspects of combat one leans towards, and as long as the customization remained within the constraints of something like mix and match between current variants in the series, there's a degree of control on the part of a designer that could keep balancing issues to a minimum.

But really, this is all just my school of thought on gaming, I like options and possibilities that are there, even if not used. I fully expect some games--released after more Virtual Ons, probably--to get away from pre-set characters and use custom-only designs, as per the mandate of MMOs and the like. I don't expect anything near that level of customization put into Virtual On, as I expect there to be standard versions of characters within it, but I do think varying up VRs within their own named set could be taken a proper step further with a decent vision and some restraint on letting it get too out of hand.

[Frostycyke]

I agree, to a certain extent, about Destructible effects. It would be interesting and may add a layer of gameplay. Maybe I know this wall if only a few hits away from breaking, so I wait behind it and let my opponent blast, then use the open terrain to score a free hit. And it will make run-away wins harder to get.

However, I am against customizing gameplay options in a fighter. Cosmetic options, like Soul Calibur 4, if fine. Even fighting sports games like Fight night and the upcoming UFC- which might take me away from VOOT for a short while, is fine to me, between the moves are much more common and shared between almost all characters.

But in a fighting game like VOOT and Street fighter, customizing a character can lead to so many problems. The creators would have to balances all 27 different Raiden combinations vs each VR's 27 different combinations. If the game only had 10 VR's each with 27 different options, that would mean they would essitianlly have 270 different playable characters! Now they could have alot of weapons and options be the same, but then that would ruin the idea of even having options.

And then what about the players? And tournaments? Before each match would I see what options he had selected? Knowing which Arphamd model I am facing gives me the knowledge of whither I want to close the distance, or run the hell away. Would I just be thrown into a match and have to learn first hand what cookie-cutter set-up he is using? How would tournaments work?

I love MMO's, RPG's, Tabletop miniatures, CCG's, Sports games, Armor core and the like, where custimiztions are fun. I love spending hours min/maxing my D&D character sheet- yes I'm a geek!- But in a fighter game, I want the focus to remain on fighting with unique and interesting characters.

I guess this is one area where will have to disagree to agree, or something like that.

[commonlogik]

Great thoughtful thread. =)

Back when VOOT came out on Dreamcast, I always thought the next evolution to the Virtual On series would be a single player mode with multiple missions, where a player could explore a stage and have numerous mission goals. THEN, Virtual on Marz came out and without insulting any fans of that game reading this <cue in crickets>, VOMarz was pretty not good - outside the changed play mechanics of VOMarz, the controls and VO game system wasn't conducive to a traditional single player story mode IMO.

Customization pretty much goes without saying - I would love to see a logo editor but also would love to see some type of "bubble text" taunting/victory remarks that could appear at the beginning and at the end of matches. Something similar to what Phantasy Star Online has, but limit it so it's not spammable.

There are two features I would love to see the Virtual On borrow from another SEGA series - I loved the training mode of Virtua Fighter 4 and the whole "Kumite" mode where you go through a town's arcade centers to compete against "virtual players". With the training mode, would be great to go over each of the VR's attacks, combos, strategies and tactics. A VO Kumite Mode would be AWESOME, as US players would get a taste of playing against expert VO players in Japan. And just like Virtua Fighter 4's Kumite mode, you could unlock accessories that "flaunt" your success at Kumite Mode - these would all be cosmetic items but something as simple as switching out the "Dreamcast" on each of the robots with a Saturn, Genesis, or Master System. Or have like 5 cosmetically different Beam Swords to buy/unlock...

Another life ago, I had once email interviewed one of the designers of VOOT and actually asked him about destructible environments. He felt that while it was a pretty cool idea it could also possibly slowdown the fast gameplay, something he felt they should avoid. One idea he did bring up was having destructible environments that would open up a new battle arena (i.e. MvC, Dead or Alive, Power Stone 2). That actually sounds pretty cool if done right.

Oh, let's actually have a online "sideline" mode! I'm glad VOOT 5.66 came out with pretty decent online play, but man does it suck not being able to watch other people's matches.

[MentholMoose]

One idea he did bring up was having destructible environments that would open up a new battle arena (i.e. MvC, Dead or Alive, Power Stone 2). That actually sounds pretty cool if done right.

This made me think about the map bugs in VER.5.45 and earlier... I've never seen both players fall off a map, and I wonder about the results (free fall combat anyone?!). This actually was a downside of the DM time setting... if you fall off the map, the machine has to be reset! (This happened to me once at SHGL.)

Sorry for going off on a tangent there.

[RVR - 42]

Customization is wonderful in Armored Core. But VO is not AC...so it definitely should not be in a Virtual On...or if it is...no weapon switching...maybe just cosmetics as someone had said. But yea a version 5.99 would own. Use an improved 5.66 M.S.B.S. totally what they need. Gosh SEGA...why don't you see how great this could be? It's like...so obvious. XD!

[neoKEN]

Weapon customization would be an interesting idea, but it will be difficult to balance unless they limit certain mechs only to certain types of weapons. Imagine Fei-yen with Raiden lasers running around.

[vitrium]

Customization on weapons and such would be a nightmare to balance. The idea of variants is welcome. If we can have 3 distinctive Apharmds, then having a few Raidens wouldn't be so bad. The giant sword that FeiYen w/ Panic Heart has in Force always caught my attention for being much more different than the original

Just like someone else mentioned, the customization I would like are custom graphics on the VRs, and a bit more flexibility on custom colors. I tried to get a good gundam scheme going on my temjin but the Red feet are tied to other parts othe body.

Kumite mode would be radical! Getting cosmetic items to jazz up appearances has been something to lure players into arcades for a while now

[Sixfortyfive]

I think 3 Apharmds is too much as it is, honestly.

[mechazoidal]

It may sound weird coming from me, but one of the things that I got hyped for Force(until I played it) was the 2-on-2 action, which I'd love to see experimented with again. Supposedly the speed was much higher in beta testing, but they knackered it in the final release to avoid driving away newbie players.

Coupled with a DOA-style multiple arena like 'Moose noted and you could have some entertaining matches, although it would probably be hell on replay camera angles.

[SixtyHz]

Hi new here! Great thread... here's my 2 cents

Destructible obstacles sounds great to me, as long as they are predictable and controlled, none of that physics sims stuff... they would basically become useless as barricade after taking some damage... space port needs this imho... this should be used on one of the new levels tho...

COlumns may be interesting (basically really tall obstacles that you cant fly over) especially for aerial combat...

I would like to see an increased poly count but keep the same render style...

Some transparent effects.

Matchmaking improved (really the only downside to 5.66 for xbla)

Saving other leaderboard replays or at least being able to bookmark them.

REmembering my cursor position after coming back from watching a leaderboard replay (i mean come on...)

Watch online matches.

2 to 3 new mechs and their associated levels (i'll take variants or brand new designs)

VF4 style training mode

If any customization it should be solely decal based... some of the marz designs are incredible...

[Testament/Seven7]

Matchmaking improved (really the only downside to 5.66 for xbla)

Explain this please. The only time i'm not enjoying myself is when no one else is on to play against, but thats not really a fault of the game per=se.

Though i'd be nice if the guide button or the dashboard had a time zone app thing so we could guesstimate when people from japan or just different time zones in general will be avalable...but again, not necessarily something thats the fault of the game.

[Sixfortyfive]

He's talking about how it takes roughly 10 attempts on average to connect to an opponent. It really is the worst thing about VOOT 360. Sometimes you spend more time in the lobby than in the game.