Matchup Discussions

[Davo87]

who's CW? Dordray? Raiden?

[rvr67michael]

I think Spec's, if memory serves it was extremely hard to dodge at range in 5.2.

[Flyer]

Excellent homing, cCW was almost always a guaranteed knockdown, excellent damage. I knew there was a reason I stoped using Specineff...

[Davo87]

cCW now does not knockdown like wtf. Standing CW on the otherhand does against lighter vrs but the startup is slower. Only RT CW and diagonal forward crdash does a gurranteed knockdown in 5.66. So really he isnt that safe. Atleast thats balanced.

[DeepInTheHops]

The most powerful Spec players I've fought tend to avoid mid range and go for a long-distance defensive game, and considering Dordray's offense I don't blame them.

I played against an experienced Dordray player the other day (like 650-620 or something like that) and it was actually a fairly easy match. Unlike other Dordray players, he stayed within mid to close range the whole time and rarely used the drill. If I can force somebody to play at that range (probably REALLY hard to do), maybe Dorday won't mean "automatic loss" in the future...

[Frostycyke]

On the subject of Dordray, what can a Temjin player do? The ones that like to use rings to set-up rushes and CC, are alot easier to deal with than the long range keep away guys, the guys that like to keep obstacles between me and them while using claws/drills to go through anything.

My attacks bounce off his V-Armor, so I have to get close, which is a pain, while still trying to dodge his attacks. I use bombs and LTCW since it can go through obstacles and has nice homing, but that really isn't enough.

[feixaq]

For Temjin vs. Dordray, I like to use cLTLW to throw the long horizontal bomb at first... it doesn't do much damage, but it strips off Dordray's V.Armor nicely, and it moves very fast so you can usually tag Dordray with it. 2 or 3 of those and the beam rifle will start penetrating his V.Armor decently.

[Oolong]

Any tips for Grys vs. Dordray? I play a rushdown Grys, and closing the distance is a bitch. By the time I've reached a runaway Dordray, and done the dance, he's chipped enough to get a timeout win.

[Davo87]

<bump> Probably pm Menthol if he doesnt see this. Grys-vok having more arnaments at longrange should be at favour, even against Dordray's #1 V armor.

[rvr67michael]

What are these long range Dordrays doing that's so troublesome? I have the opposite problem, my Dordray spends the match trying to close in and Grys and they're the ones who are running away! I have no idea why Dordray would want to be at range anyway, I think he's a lot stronger at mid and close range. Most good Grys players I fight do go long range and keep me from getting, so I end up playing a very defensive game primarily hoping for a lucky hit from the drill or claw. It doesn't usually work in my favor.

[MentholMoose]

Any tips for Grys vs. Dordray? I play a rushdown Grys, and closing the distance is a bitch. By the time I've reached a runaway Dordray, and done the dance, he's chipped enough to get a timeout win.

You really can't use the same strategies against every VR (well, technically you can, but you'll lose a lot ). For example, when I started playing online, I previously had minimal experience against high-level Angelan. When I tried my usual strategies against a particularly good Angelan player, I got totally destroyed for a bunch of matches against him. However, I worked on adapting my style, and soon I was destroying this guy!

I don't have an excellent anti-Dordray strategy yet, though, since I haven't played against enough high-level Dordray. In the first few weeks of ranked matches, I only saw one such Dordray player (his GT is "DORABON" and VOOT was the only game listed on his profile); his Dordray is excellent and destroyed me every time we played. I've finally started seeing more Dordray players online, so I am improving.

So here are some tips for Grys-Vok versus Dordray. Obstacles are effective against Dordray's attacks. Consider using them to counter the rushes. You can watari dash around an obstacle to try to bait Dordray to go near it and get stuck on it, then try to time a dash attack during the freeze time. You can also jump and air dash, then time an air dash attack... or cancel the air dash when it's safe and launch a ground-based counterattack. You must be extra careful with dashing attacks against Dordray because the rushes counter them well.

Grys-Vok napalm techniques are less effective against Dordray, since Dordray's LTCW (rings) goes right through LW and cLW, and the rushes can navigate around them. So, you normally have to use them in conjunction with obstacles. All VRs have attacks that go through napalm, but those rings seem extra effective.

Obstacles will slow down the drill so you can easily neutralize it (with LW); one thing to try is to hang out in the open to bait the drill, then steer it into an obstacle and neutralize it (it's easier than directly neutralizing it out the open, although you can also just dash to avoid it). While Dordray's LW is charging, you can then try attacks that normally are countered with the drill.

Here's a little scenario to possibly give you ideas. After baiting the drill, neutralize the obstacle-slowed drill with a cRTLW into the obstacle, then follow-up with jRTCW (a very nice combination in general). You can probably land safely since Dordray will be busy avoiding everything, then do a cLTCW for a freeze cancel. If it's safe, do a side dash cRW to add even more harassment, and dash freeze cancel with cLTCW. If it's safe to stay stationary slightly longer, rotate cancel the cLTCW lag time and do another quick cLTCW. Instead of the rotate thing, you can also do a low air dash out of the first cLTCW, cancel it almost immediately, and do another cLTCW when you land (then consider rotate -> cLTCW, or another air dash -> cancel -> cLTCW ). Unless you need to be extra quick, you should normally be using cLTCW to freeze cancel, and look for the chance to follow-up with rotate -> cLTCW.

For all this to work, you will need a good sense of the gauge recharge speed... the CW recharges fast, but the jRTCW depletes it completely, so take care with the timing for the follow-up attacks. I can't give any tips other than just practice. I'm pretty good with the gauges but occasionally I manage to run out of both LW and CW at the same time, and I am like, "WTF do I do now?!"

Keep practicing, and good luck!

[Frostycyke]

When I tried my usual strategies against a particularly good Angelan player, I got totally destroyed for a bunch of matches against him

And just what sort of strategy worked for you? Dordray and Angelan are both my toughest match-ups, sure I lose alot... ALOT... but vs most VR's I put up a decent fight and have an understanding of what I did wrong. But against those two who seem to utilize Fire and Forget weapons I spend more time dashing to avoid thier attacks than dashing to attack them.

[DeepInTheHops]

What are these long range Dordrays doing that's so troublesome?

I can't speak for other VRs (or for good Specineff players ), but long-range Dordray shuts down my offense. RW attacks bounce off at mid and long range until you strip off a decent amount of V-Armor. Actually, if he's at 100% V-Armor, even REALLY close RW attacks still deflect (gotta love those knockdowns where they're still at 100% ). RTRW still works, although from long distances people can avoid it and it often leaves you wide open. Same problem with CW, at long range you have plenty of time to dodge it. Orbs can be annoying but don't do enough damage to compensate for my main weapons not connecting.

As for Dordray's offense, well-timed claw/drill combos trip me up the most. Specineff doesn't really have any good weapons for canceling them out, so I often end up getting hit by one or the other.

@Frostycyke: Those two VRs are the bane of my existence as well. Actually, my problems I listed here with Dordray are the same problems I have with Angelan... just replace claw/drill combos with dragon/ice pillar combos. I can avoid some of their attacks but they can avoid pretty much all of my attacks.

[MentholMoose]

When I tried my usual strategies against a particularly good Angelan player, I got totally destroyed for a bunch of matches against him

And just what sort of strategy worked for you? Dordray and Angelan are both my toughest match-ups, sure I lose alot... ALOT... but vs most VR's I put up a decent fight and have an understanding of what I did wrong. But against those two who seem to utilize Fire and Forget weapons I spend more time dashing to avoid thier attacks than dashing to attack them.

Going for direct-hit type dash attacks basically work against Angelan; Angelan has near zero freeze time for dash attacks and jumps, so an Angelan player can virtually always jump to avoid it. She has superior jumping abilities, so jumping isn't really a tactical disadvantage, either. Using some harassment type dash attacks are fine, though.

I've found staying in long range is the best anti-Angelan strategy for Grys-Vok. Angelan has nothing to clear most Grys-Vok projectiles, and Angelan's attacks can either be dodged since Grys-Vok has good speed, or cleared using napalm techniques. Are you using Grys-Vok? I can upload a replay I have against Angelan if you want.

[Frostycyke]

Angelan has near zero freeze time for dash attacks and jumps, so an Angelan player can virtually always jump to avoid it

That is not the kind of answer a Temjin player is looking to hear.

I guess I'll have to spend more time working on V-armor stripping first, using crLTLW and LTRW, before I try my hand at getting closer.

[MentholMoose]

What I see a lot from Temjin is starting the round off with an quick cLTRW, since it's hard to avoid and will strip some V.Armor. Also, check out the discussion starting at the post linked below for some further Temjin technique:
Re: advanced techniques

[Davo87]

As for Dordray's offense, well-timed claw/drill combos trip me up the most. Specineff doesn't really have any good weapons for canceling them out, so I often end up getting hit by one or the other.

this is one long overdue reply. Claw can be cancelled with LTRW. standard drills aka (walking, standing) can be cancelled by cLTCW. But not other dash types. Still its not recommended to cancel drill bcos its way too fast and reward is low. Getting rid of slow claw if doable is very helpful to have one less thing to worry about on the field.



Hmm, just surprised with ppl playing, no one seem to want to openly discuss their opinions on matchups everynow and then. With specineff: in my(nobody) order, the matchup difficulty if fighting against veterans: AphB>Dor>Ang>Bal>Grys>Spe>Cyp>Tem>Rai>Fei>StVoks>Ajim>Strik>Com

Which means Im scared **** against Battler bcos its easy to die instantly. Im clueless fighting a good Angelan bcos its hard to make a hit. And also frustrated against Dor and Bal with the amount of risk and effort required. The order of the rest of the cast matters less but not dangerous to the extent where one fatal error = lose. This should also apply to raiden tho I feel Specy has an easier time to attack while dealing with his trap.

What do others feel?

[DeepInTheHops]

That is an old question! I don't have as much trouble dodging Dordray's drills anymore, although Dordray is still my toughest matchup.

AphB>Dor>Ang>Bal>Grys>Spe>Cyp>Tem>Rai>Fei>StVoks>Ajim>Strik>Com

For Specineff, I'd place AphB somewhere in the middle; after that my top 4 toughest matchups would agree with yours (Dor, Ang, Bal, Grys... probably in that order too). The middle of the pack is harder to sort, although I'd put Raiden towards the end and push AphS further up. AphS is supposed to be an easy match, but I suck against him. As long as you're careful about the laser cages, Raiden is an easy match. Although a highly skilled Raiden player will still win, of course.

[Davo87]

striker's slower dash makes him an easier target for CW and nearly all his projectiles gets neutralised by LTRW and RW.

What is about AphB that makes it favor for specy? If u put him in the middle r u getting higher win ratios against better players?

[PhantomPhotonX]

What I see a lot from Temjin is starting the round off with an quick cLTRW, since it's hard to avoid and will strip some V.Armor.

Yep, that's the way to go. Within 300m, that move is pretty much a guaranteed hit against Dordray because he's so big and slow. I wouldn't fire any regular attacks at him until you've weakened his V-Armor to around 80%. If you knock him on the ground, use the cLTLW to strip more V-Armor. Continue to use the cLTLW or LTLW whenever possible. I also like the LTCW because it ignores V-Armor, and can pass through many obstacles. If you have an opening, I find that the diagonal-forward-dashing cRW penetrates his V-Armor the best.

I still really hate the Temjin vs. Dordray matchup. Most good Dordray players, in my experience (especially the Japanese players), prefer to play at long range. They will get in a few hits, and then use the rushing attacks to pretty much teleport to the other side of the map, where Temjin's attacks are useless. Then when you close in to hit him, he will just use another rushing attack to keep his distance. Something I like to do is to use the Surfing Ram when he takes off like that. You have to be fast, so that you catch him just as his attack ends, but it's so satisfying when it hits. The key to winning with this matchup is in the beginning of the match. If you can get a quick lead over him, you can play keep-away from him, as long as you watch out for the drill. It's incredibly difficult to recover from a health deficit against a good Dordray player though.

Hope this helps.