Virtual-On Force guide (WIP) / techniques discussion

[Zaarock]

Here's a very useful technique I had totally missed somehow.



Low air dash attacks:

In Virtual-On Force you get a recovery time after performing air dash attacks based on the height of the fall afterwards. This includes air dash CC attacks. The 'base' recovery time is still VR specific. This technique is a lot more useful for VRs that have low recovery to begin with.

Assuming the attacks own animation isn't very long you can use an air dash attack at very low altitude (immediately after jumping) to do dash attacks with very fast recovery. This recovery is generally much faster than the equivalent ground dash attack. For many VRs the recovery is nearly instant. The input for the dash is tricky but once you get it into muscle memory this should be easy to adopt as a common tactic.

Air dash attacks are much weaker in terms of damage than grounded attacks but some are very efficient with this method. If you need to stay evasive while attacking this is a useful technique to master

Especially if your target is baiting you to do a normal dash attack to punish your recovery this can be a nice way to throw them off. This also makes air dash melee attacks a lot more valid: the timing is very difficult but you can hit grounded opponents while moving faster & with less recovery.

japanese wiki calls these 'LJ' attacks.


You can see very good use of this with Apharmd T typeB's dashing RW here (mainly in the first round):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAg7dLAHlbk

lots of other advanced tech there too. That player is super good (got my ass handed to his crazy CC play with Temjin today )

[Porcupine]

I've both seen and thought of that before but my instinct and experience told me that it's not quite as powerful as you imagine. So I went to test it and other aspects of aerial movement, mainly in Force but also a bit of VOOT, for a few hours today.

Mainly, I thought the resulting recovery would be about the same for super low air dash attacks, and regular dash attacks. With some slight variances for each VR, of course. My tests showed that I was right. It just happens that Apharmd T (featured in the video) and especially Kagekiyo (who you probably tested most) are among the few mechs that recover somewhat faster from it.

First an explanation for non-Force players. The jump and air dash mechanics in Force are mostly like VOOT but there are a lot of subtle differences which intermediate players won't notice. Air dashes and air dash attacks float downward slightly differently. The types of landing freezes are also different. VOOT has 2 normal types of landing freeze per VR (jumpcancel freeze, versus the freeze after landing from the air in any other way, which can be canceled with a standing shot). There is a third type of very long landing freeze in VOOT if you do a super low air dash (you don't have to attack) and wait a while to hit the ground prematurely, and maybe a fourth type if you count walking and falling off an obstacle. Force has 4 normal types of landing freeze per VR (jumpcancel freeze, empty jump freeze, empty air dash cancel freeze, and the long freeze after doing any aerial attack) and none of these can be canceled by attacking. The freeze you get if you air dash very low and hit the ground prematurely is the same as the freeze after doing any aerial attack. And I guess the fifth type of freeze is the one you get from walking or dashing and falling off an obstacle (which is super quick and desirable, unlike in VOOT).

Anyway, in Force the recovery you get after doing a low air dash attack will mostly consist of your long landing freeze. There is also some dash recovery time after your shots finish, which is VR and dash attack specific, but this part can be partially canceled by an almost perfectly low air dash. However if you are even a little bit off the ground you will not cancel this part away and thus recover slower. Being much higher off the ground does not make you recover any slower because in Force, air dashes and air dash attacks drift downward pretty rapidly, and you sink faster if you jumped higher. Most players in Force, even very good ones, will probably not do a low enough air dash to get the absolute fastest recovery, but it will still be good enough to be comparable to ground dash attack recovery.

In the end, the most dominant factors in determining whether ground or air recovers faster, is going to be the ground dash attack recovery of that VR, versus the long landing freeze of that VR. For most VR, I felt the ground dash recovers equally or faster. Don't forget that a few VRs (mainly Temjin) can jump slightly before the ground dash attack recovery ends. The reason Kagekiyo and Apharmd T recover slightly faster from low air dash attacks is because their normal long landing freeze (after attacking in the air) recovers faster than most other VR. I actually found a general pattern to this; all heavy VR recover quickly for this type of freeze. Now this explains why I have a slightly harder time hitting dropping Raidens and Kagekiyos in Force with CC or dash CC, while I feel I am forced to be hit more often as Fei-Yen. For this pattern, heavy is defined by knockdown and stun resistance to shots. Kagekiyo recovers the fastest though, and Raiden is heavier than him.

[Porcupine]

That analysis only studies which technique recovers faster. As for which is better, a ton of different issues come into play, and I can only make guesses on that.

Let's set Force aside and go back to VOOT. Because in VOOT, earlier this year I had learned for the first time that not all VR have the same air dash recovery after an air dash attack (even before going into the subsequent dropping phase). There are a bunch of air dash attacks in the game that recover abnormally fast, but perhaps of greatest note is Temjin's forward air dash RW (which PhantomPhotonX turned into the core of his old style, and has later been adopted and further evolved by Vash). Combined with Temjin's naturally lowest landing freeze in the game, it turns out that Temjin air forward dash RW recovers much faster than ground forward dash RW. That one is indisputable; the recovery difference is much greater than anything in Force.

So I had theorized, why not replace all my Temjin forward dash RW with low forward air dash RW? (It doesn't have to be super low, or even low at all. The recovery will be almost the same either way, as the VOOT mechanics are different than Force here. I'm singling out low air dash here only because it is hypothetically replacing the purpose of ground dash RW). I still consider doing this even today, but I have not yet moved to this style of play. I don't see any other VOOT Temjin players doing it, not even the Japanese masters. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, but they must be related to things other than the recovery speed. The lower damage of the air forward dash RW is one of the reasons, but I'm sure there are others. Note that almost all advanced Temjin players do use and abuse air forward dash RW to varying extents, they just don't usually do it very low, so it is not serving quite the same purpose, and thus not "replacing" ground forward dash RW.

Now going back to Force, I can think of even more reasons why you would not want to replace your ground dash attack with a low air dash attack. Dash attack rotation sucks in Force, especially in the air because you won't be able to apply the turning tricks. If your air dash attack is not too low, it can get good rotation because your jump will cause you to rapidly face the enemy, but that won't happen for a low air dash attack. Another reason is that you recover completely frozen with the low air dash attack, whereas you still have some movement after a ground dash attack. Being completely frozen in Force is doubly bad because your other opponent could shoot you in the back at any moment. Even the opponent in front of you could beat you out by simply firing walking RW or CW at you.

In the linked video, I noticed that the player always used the low air forward dash RW after throwing a napalm, and thus hides in it. So that could also have something to do with why he preferred it during those situations.

[Zaarock]

I tested Temjin 747A and 747F as well, 747A recovers faster from low air dash RW than the ground dash one. This seems very useful with side air dash at least, because side air dash attacks have more rotation. And again, air dash melee seems to recover much faster for most VRs. Temjins can use low diagonal airdash LW as an evasive action (it gives a speed boost). 747F benefits from this a lot for grenade throw and air dash CC (his ground dash CC is nerfed but air dash speed is much faster).

Lack of rotation is a problem of course, but there are lots of situations where you don't need to rotate (say you want to attack the enemy your teammate is fighting)

I could go on to test most VRs but it's probably more useful just to check the japanese wiki for which 'LJ' attacks have fast recovery and which VRs have good landing recovery.

edit:

more examples with near instant recovery / very useful low air dash attacks:

- Temjin series

- Kagekiyo series

- Specineff "the Sin"

- Bal v Tigla & Bal s Rimso: all air dash attacks. LW and CW work very well, good damage. side dash LW is very good within 300 range, almost the same damage as forward dash.

- Raiden series (512E1&2)

- VOX series excluding Mariko


PS. 747F is very fun but difficult to win with, I think I'll start using it a lot more.

[Zaarock]

I made a tutorial video for most of the advanced techniques listed here (and a couple new ones):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dPTYFYhIws

It's a lot like one of the old VOOT tutorials Schooly did, though does require more knowledge of the game. I know there's only a few people interested in VO4 techniques but it was actually sort of fun to make. It's easier to read than the guide written in the first post as well.

[Porcupine]

Yeah even if low air dash attacks don't always replace ground dash attacks, they might still be useful as an unpredictable mixup or in other various specific situations.

In particular they might be good if both opponents are ignoring you and you are making a full power assault and ran out of your LW and CW gauge. Then forward dash RW is usually your best distance attack in terms of damage and hitting ability. A ground forward dash RW can be most quickly followed up by a low air forward dash RW, which can in turn recover even quicker to let you follow up with more LW, CW, walking RW, CC or whatever. (This isn't as rare a situation as it might sound, to people who don't play Force).

One thing I can say though is that all Fei-Yen and Guarayakha players universally prefer ground side dash CW over air side dash CW as their very long distance homing attack of choice. I used to always use air side dash CW because it's much easier to use due to the ability to shoot over obstacles and the auto-rotation on the jump (you often aren't aware of where the "other opponent" is when you do this technique). The damage on the ground version is a little more though and this is crucial since the damage of side dash CW is lower to begin with. But I also think players prefer or don't mind the ground dash recovery, both whether you are being ignored or being targeted by one opponent.

Most air dash LW and CW attacks do equal or comparable damage to ground dash. This includes Fei-Yen's forward dash CWs, but they are not useable as long distance homing attacks, as they have zero homing. Some mechs have LW and CW switched (ordinary Temjins) or LW and RW switched (some Bals, some Raidens, etc) so the soft rule might switch accordingly.

Most air dash RW lose significant damage compared to ground dash RW, at least in the forward direction. Fei-Yen VH doesn't lose any damage at all though, she may be the lone exception, so I'll try to find uses for it. Unfortunately her air forward dash RW has a unique problem: it can't shoot downwards at all. Unless you do a perfectly low air dash you can't hit an enemy on the ground. A perfectly low air dash can hit the top of his head. The requirement is the toughest out of all low air dash requirements: you have to be even more perfect than the 'almost perfect' that is required to get the quickest recovery off of a low air dash. It is to the point that it is almost physically impossible to do with a controller because you have to slide your thumb from the jump button to the turbo button in one frame (same input as Mitsurugi's b:A just frame in Soul Calibur 3 and 4, haha). Seems like it would be easier on twinsticks (just hit 7_9 on the sticks and immediately press turbo, if that works).

[Zaarock]

I agree. I never said they replace or do more damage than air dash, only that they have faster recovery so are more mobile. Air dash melee though seems to be more superior than that but it's hard to pull off against grounded opponents.

Yeah, low air dashes are a thing that's much easier on twin sticks, since moving forward removes the jump input in itself. Problem on pad is that the jump button needs to be released in a few frames. Still, very doable. As you can see in that tutorial video I still have trouble getting it super low for the air dash CC hit.

I trained with 747F a bit in the last two days, think I'm getting the hang of it. It really excels at using projectile attacks in melee range (the RTRW laser comes out very quickly) and other tricky stuff I haven't really learned yet.

[Porcupine]

I went to do more tests. I tested low air dash CC and it's like you said, you have to be amazingly perfectly low for air dash CC LW/RW to hit ground, so it's very difficult. And actually, you have to be even more perfectly low than for Fei-Yen VH's low air forward dash RW to hit an opponent in the head. So I guess you have a 2-frame window to hit with VH's low air dash RW (still quite difficult to do) and a perfect 1-frame requirement to hit with low air dash CC LW/RW. The 1-frame requirement seems to apply to all the VR capable of air dash CC, namely the Myzr, Fei-Yen, and Temjin 747 series. I was surprised to learn that the Temjin 707 series can't do air dash CC.

If I do the absolutely perfect 1-frame low air dash with Fei-Yen VH's low air forward dash RW, it hits them in the chest instead of the head.

Aside from that, I noticed something else. Unique to Force is that all VRs cannot jump cancel instantly, they must go up some minimal distance before canceling down. Furthermore, this minimal distance varies slightly for all VR. Some VRs even have a delay before they start to rise from a jump at all. There is no general pattern for which VRs exhibit such behavior, but the most obvious are Raiden, Angelan, and Tetsuo. Other VRs who have a less extreme version of this phenomena include Apharmds and Guarayakha. Any delay starting a jump is not necessarily related to the duration of that VR's jumpcancel landing freeze, but will contribute to make the overall jumpcancel slower.

The reason that matters here is that VRs who have a jump delay going up are much easier to do low air dash attacks with. That doesn't help Myzr, Fei-Yen, or Temjin 747 though, who are the VRs who stand to benefit the most from perfectly low air dashes.

[Zaarock]

I went to do more tests. I tested low air dash CC and it's like you said, you have to be amazingly perfectly low for air dash CC LW/RW to hit ground, so it's very difficult. And actually, you have to be even more perfectly low than for Fei-Yen VH's low air forward dash RW to hit an opponent in the head. So I guess you have a 2-frame window to hit with VH's low air dash RW (still quite difficult to do) and a perfect 1-frame requirement to hit with low air dash CC LW/RW. The 1-frame requirement seems to apply to all the VR capable of air dash CC, namely the Myzr, Fei-Yen, and Temjin 747 series. I was surprised to learn that the Temjin 707 series can't do air dash CC.

I don't think it's one frame (with 747A), maybe four or more since I've hit with it without getting the lowest possible dash.

It seems to be easier depending on the VR. For some reason 747F's and Myzrs sword in air dash melee seems to hit lower so it's much easier.

[Porcupine]

I haven't been able to hit with low air dash CC RW/LW on anything except the lowest possible dash that I've gotten (so far) but maybe there are lower dashes (earlier I thought my Fei-Yen air forward dash RW hitting the opponent in the head was lowest, but it wasnt) or maybe it is possible to hit with a slightly higher dash (possibly with more restrictions on positioning) but I've not managed it.

[Zaarock]

Played with Fei-Yen VH for an hour or so today testing out stuff. low air dash RW seems super good to me actually.. with a super low dash the recovery is 0.3-0.5 seconds, while the recovery on ground dash RW is 1.5 seconds. You can shoot during the end of the recovery of the ground dash but can do anything after the air dash since it's just a landing. I'll gladly lose 10-20% damage for that difference, especially since it's not easy to hit with. Not relevant to the technique but air dash RW also has a smaller knockdown value, so you can get multiple hits in on some VR.

Just like quicksteps and advanced stuff in VOOT the low air dash becomes easy with some practice, I get it 80% of the time now and I've only been using it for a week. And it's probably easier on twin sticks.

Lowest possible (frame perfect) air dash would be where it doesn't even look like you're off the ground at all. You can definitely have your feet in the air more than the minimum and hit with Fei-Yen VH's right weapon.

You might get the impression it's a tighter window it is because of how it works on pad, since on it the time it takes to air dash is time it takes to release jump button + time to push dash after. Virtua Fighter for example has a technique that requires you to press a button for a exactly 1 or 2 frames and that's way way harder than this. Just getting a button on the 360 pad to release in 1 frame is unreliable from what I remember..

[Porcupine]

Mitsurugi b:A in Soul Calibur 3 and 4 has the same problem with needing to release releasing jump ('b' input in arcade is Y button on 360 controller...also 'A' button in arcade is 'X' button on 360 controller) in one frame.

I agree with you that there is probably a tiny window in Force/OT that you can (and must) wait after you press jump to do the lowest possible air dash that makes the technique easier. But it's still not that easy to me. I think the various lowness frame requirements I tested earlier still apply but with the initial window frames added in. For example if the jump delay window is 2 frames, then to hit with low air dash CC might require 3 frames, Fei-Yen VH low air dash RW maybe 5 frames, and general low air dash (for fastest recovery) maybe 7 frames.

With mechs such as Raiden, Tetsuo, Angelan that have a bigger jump delay (probably like 5 frames) low air dashing is really easy though. I noticed Masashiro Mana do it a few times last night with Raiden.

When you say that the recovery on Fei-Yen's ground dash RW is 1.5 seconds are you including the freeze time? I don't count the ground dash freeze time in my comparisons, I only count the slowing down part of the dash (in VOOT, the equivalent would be the remaining dash after shooting). Because as you said, you can shoot or jump to cancel that freeze. In the case of Temjin and a few other VR, you can even jump significantly before the freeze starts (interestingly enough in OT you have to mash or time the jump, while in Force you can just hold jump and wait).

Fei-Yen's ground dash recovery is relatively long, so even though her post-shooting air dash landing freeze is also relatively long, her low air dash does recover somewhat faster, but the difference to me didn't seem to be as extreme as 0.5 vs 1.5 seconds.

Fei-Yen VH air forward dash RW seems to be the only RW in the game that doesn't lose damage compared to the ground version, I've tested almost all of them by now for that. Not losing damage occurs more regularly with LW and CW though. I have tested knockdown values with numerous VR's ground forward dashing RW (as it is integral to the damage potential as you said) but I never tested any air forward dashing RW. I'll go and test for VH, if her knockdown value is less that could actually mean the air version does more damage on average!

By the way, knockdown values are part of the reason I decided to abandon Fei-Yen BH a long time ago. I still use her occasionally but not like I did when I first started out. Her main attractiveness is that her forward dashing RW does damage on the level of Temjin, Angelan, Guarayakha, etc but it is largely a trick because its knockdown and stagger values are higher as well, while the damage scales down more rapidly and at shorter distances than Temjin, etc. So most of the time Fei-Yen BH does not have any advantage at all as the forward dash RW at most ranges in real fights does less damage than Temjin, etc.

[Porcupine]

As an update for other forum readers, Zaarock turned out to have been counting the ground dash freeze time in his comparisons after all, so that was the main reason why our comparisons were different. But Zaarock still overall favors the low air dash recoveries slightly more than I do.

Here are my newest discoveries/tests (Zaarock disappeared so we haven't discussed this yet). I came up with a better way to test the recovery times! Previously I was just eyeballing things and it's likely both of us were affected by psychological illusions to an extent.

Now, I go to the opposite end of the stage and shoot my enemy with forward dash RW, then hold jump to get the earliest possible jump afterwards. At the properly chosen distance, a projectile of your choice from forward dash RW can contact the enemy at exactly the same time as your jump starts. This provides an objective time clock which erases all the psychological illusions. Also there are obvious visual and audio cues both for when your projectiles hit and when your jump starts. Next, from the same distance, do low air forward dash RW instead, followed by holding jump, and simply check whether you jump before or after your projectile hits.

There are a number of crude things and approximations regarding this method but most of them don't matter as much as you'd think, plus they can be fixed by making the test more sophisticated. I won't bother with the details here.

[Porcupine]

One new thing I learned from this better testing method is that the absolute lowest air dash does make you recover a step faster. So it might go something like this: not counting the aforementioned VR-dependent 2~5 frame jump delay, a low air dash that is 1 frame off the ground is necessary for the fastest recovery and allows for air dash RW/LW CC, a low air dash that is 2 frames off the ground is necessary to hit ground with Fei-Yen VH's forward air dash RW, low air dashes that are 2~3 frames off the ground recover pretty well and equally as fast as each other, low air dashes that are 4~6 frames off the ground recover slower but the same as each other, and low air dashes that are 7+ frames off the ground recover slower on a continuous basis.

It's weird but I do think that air dash recovery in Force worsens in steps, and not simply continuously slower than the higher up you are, in part due to the way air dash attacks drift downwards in Force, but also in part due to other added mechanics (one of them from VOOT, which creates the 1 frame fastest recovery, which I shall talk about later).

Anyway, this is where more discrepancies between Zaarock's and my previous testing can be explained. I think I had usually been testing the case of 2~3 frame air dashes, while Zaarock may have only been testing the perfect case. I'll call my way the almost-perfect case, as it's still quite a low air dash and it's certainly possible to do worse. I did the following new tests using my new methods:

Temjin 747A perfect low forward air dash RW recovers slightly, slightly slower than forward ground dash RW
Temjin 747A almost perfect low forward air dash RW recovers slightly slower than forward ground dash RW

Fei-Yen VH perfect low forward air dash RW recovers slightly faster than forward ground dash RW
Fei-Yen VH almost perfect low forward air dash RW recovers slightly slower than forward ground dash RW

These are important tests because Temjin and Fei-Yen are like the average case. They have bad landing freeze after an air dash attack, and they have poor ground dash attack recovery.

I have not bothered to retest old things which we agreed upon before. For example, Kagekiyo/Raiden/heavies tend to recover faster from low air dash attacks, while Guarayakha/Myzr/various tend to recover faster from ground dash attacks. Furthermore, their differences are greater than the minimal differences that Temjin 747A and Fei-Yen VH feature.

[Porcupine]

Going back to the topic post, here are some observations, mostly old:

Air dashing:

The length of an air dash depends on how high you jump. If you air dash before you reach the apex of your jump you won't automatically rotate towards your target.

Quick Step attacks:

Quickstepping around your opponent in melee range is now much easier to do, but you cant do it without attacking. Just move left or right while doing a melee attack...You can cancel the attack by blocking.

Quickstep turbo attacks can also be performed from a guard (see advanced techniques)

Watari Dashing:

Watari dashing is much slower than in VOOT...has strange properties in that you can start a forward dash attack even though your VR is still turning to face forward...boomerang attack...

Jump melee:
- causes bigger blockstun

Rapid Dash Cancelling

Doing extremely small dashes while holding the movement direction can be an efficient and safe way to move around, since you can jump out of the recovery and quickly access normal attacks while covering a lot of distance.

The reason air dashing too low prevents rotating to the target is that the auto-rotation while jumping is much slower in Force than in OT. Most VRs have to jump to the apex to guarantee 180 degree rotation. When you jump, your VR first rotates to face the enemy while the camera stays still. After your VR faces the enemy, the camera quickly rotates to catch up. Your VR dashes in a direction relative to where the camera is facing, so if you air dash too early it will be as if you never rotated at all.

Note that in both OT and Force, some VR have quicker auto-rotation during jumps than others. In OT it doesn't really matter as everyone is fast enough. If anything, slower is preferred in OT for better vector angling. And even in the case where the rotation is too slow, in OT there is the option to do the Instant Low Air Dash Attack. Force has a more limited version of that: if you attack immediately after air dashing, your VR aims where it rotated to prior to the dash, ignoring the camera direction.

In Force, Fei-Yen has the fastest jump auto-rotation, and does not need to reach the apex of the jump. Except Fei-Yen BH, who has the second slowest jump auto-rotation. It is so slow that even a jump cancel does not turn BH a full 180 degrees. (Jump canceling is slow in Force, so most VR can turn 180 degrees). Most other VR like Temjin, Kagekiyo, Angelan, and Guarayakha are average. BH can speed up her jump rotation slightly by inputting turbo rotate. In OT, Fei-Yen Kn has among the slower jump auto-rotation. Jump auto-rotation speed is not necessarily related to other rotation speeds.

When doing quick step turbo attacks, you need to hold down Turbo for a certain length of time to empty the input buffer and prevent a dash from coming out when you release guard. You ideally start holding Turbo before you press guard. VRs do not have the same guard animation length. I tested a few today and think Fei-Yen < Guarayakha < Angelan < Kagekiyo < Temjin from shortest to longest. The guard animation is faster when you use it as a cancel.

Watari dash effectiveness varies with the VR in Force. Fei-Yen BH is one extreme, performing similar to OT, changing dash directions almost instantly. The other Fei-Yens also change directions quicker than average. Most other VRs take time to change dash directions. Heavy VRs change so slowly that it only serves to alter any dash attack. If you need to change directions quickly to dodge something, use dash cancel instead.

Jump melee can be started against airborne enemies that are too high for the yellow CC bar to appear, like in OT. Might be useful for punishing heavy VRs upon landing? Remember that heavy VRs have the shortest of the punishable landing freezes after doing an air attack.

Dash cancel is more prevalent in Force than OT because the alternative (jump cancel) while still good, is slow and vulnerable. I've even seen some players do rapid dash canceling followed by brief manual turning in between. That is especially popular with Fei-Yen BH to avoid her poor jump rotation. However, Fei-Yen BH's jump cancel is still not bad, turning about 150 degrees. It's her jump into air dash that is really limited by the rotation.