Matchup Discussions

[Davo87]

Every char in this game is capable to be broken under good hands. Tho there is a certain number that counters a certain variety of VRs. Namely Raiden being an absolute noob killer or still threatening when played by scrubs. A good Raiden destroys strafing from any distances. There r still many ways of fighting with all other VRs. Im not at all being the well-knowledgeable as I have the least experiences. Tho Im pretty sure in the past such discussion has taken place, and ppl wishes to kno how to fight who and such.

Menthol: Mbe u can create a separate thread for each VR so we all can start sharing more specific ideas about each one? Cos the growing numbers of players is a good sign its worthwhile.


Okay something like this:

Raiden's dash cancelable cCW has initiative almost at the start of every round which forces everyone apart from Angelan to dash. Even specineff's cFW dash CW startsup too late to defend against (IIRC, Specineff's cCW is fast enough to stun Raiden from releasing his cCW. Still its a big risk at the start of the match). Angelan can use her ice mirror at the start, tho for what? She better off dash away to setup dragons than to risk eating a possible mirror breaking RTCW.



For e.g:

My fei-yen is only beginners. But she already has trouble against a Raiden that laser cages and turtles. Light VRs are more susceptible to get caught in lasers and cages if they dash at the wrong time, so I limit the number of ground dash to a certain degree which leads to another problem. The constant trap I fall into is getting ground bombed. Ground bomb is really hard to see if you are too far away and cant see him throwing it out, or your senses are too focused on the lasers.
Tho other problem is when u try to escape, he throws out laser cages. All lighter VRs have the same problem, no bombs for protection. It is very hard to escape a full laser cage without getting unscafed.

Raiden can go for chip dmg thru ground bombs while Fei has nothing to defend aside from airdashing. Her RW is easily deflected btn mid to long range. Fei has to go a bit more aggressive if she were to land some hits, at least in midrange, tho the risk reward is still at Raiden's favour whenever Fei tries to reach him. Her options are only a bit better in Hyper mode when her CW and RWRT are more homing, faster and more damage. She is better off in a stage like public port for cover, but thats where she can start eating cages and bombs when she cant runaround as easily. The matchup does not favour her where she has to be much much better at dodging everything.

Will edit:

[Aya Kyunik]

Well, I can speak a lil on the Fei-Yen vs Raiden matchup, a VO buddy of mine is a formidable Raiden player and I've played against it A LOT.

In VOOT, my Fei-Yen has to play super aggressive and super hectic. What I mean with that is that I have to almost think like he does, where would a Raiden player like to set up a trap, when would he like to throw a G-Bomb, where would he think I dash to next? Everytime I play with him, I always get ready to dash cancel or watari to somewhere he doesn't think I'll go, or where he can't aim in time. Speed is key, but speed can be your worst foe as well.

Like you mentioned, dashing all over the place indiscriminately will almost certaintly get you caught in a laser trap followed up by painful bazooka shells. I think one of the most important skill as a Fei-Yen player against a Raiden is controlling how you set up your dashes. Prolly more so in VOOM (which is where I had to learn the hard way against Raiden players) but just as important in VOOT.

Then again, this is all really against one seasoned Raiden player, I haven't had much experience with other Raiden players so take my advice with a grain of salt. This is another point, I think it's also equally important to play a variety of players. What one player does with his Raiden may not be the same as another equally skilled player. This was made painfully obvious to me when I visited Japan and had a go at a VOOT machine against a Grys-Vok. I had my fair share of Grys-Vok before, but this Japanese cleaned the floor with my Fei-Yen.

Grr, now I really wanna play online >.<

[Flyer]

Cypher and Specineff, which are both considered light VRs, make Raiden cry manly tears...

[Gasaraki]

As an Aph-B(and maybe AphC now against lighter VRs if I can help it) I have a huge problem with Feiyen it seems. her RW beam chips at me from the distance that I actually have to be in to have any sort of effect on my attacks. It's easily destroyed enough with cLW/LW, CW, and LTRW, but I can't fire those constantly. I try to dash in but I keep getting stuff by her damn hearts n whatnot.

I'm sure part of it is needing to get used to dodging them, btu is there ans specific advice anyone can give? Her CC, though not as powerful is pretty annoying as well.

[Davo87]

Thanks for some ideas. I play more Raiden than Fei-yen so I know a bit on how Raiden plays. Its just that, I nvr imagined how problematic a turtling Raiden can be for Fei. The only practical means to win against Raiden, is to play to win, taking no risks. Chip health runaway wait for timer. >_>

Against Fei, i try to lock her down with bombs and make her move where I want to corner her with AphB. Your forward dash is superior if u are chasing her on the same vector. Use bombs to clear a way whenever ur going on an offensive and stay in the blast radius which absorbs her normal LW and RW but CW. My Aph B is trash, cos I need a lot of work in dodging. He is a bit slower in sidedash and backdash just take note. Use side airdash where necessary to dodge faster things.

[RVR - 42]

Cypher and Specineff, which are both considered light VRs, make Raiden cry manly tears...

You said it dude! Woo hoo! *jumping high fives*

[DeepInTheHops]

Cypher and Specineff, which are both considered light VRs, make Raiden cry manly tears...

Yeah I use Specineff most of the time, and pretty much all of my fights against Raidens have been pretty easy. It could just be that the Raiden players I get matched up with aren't very good, though.

[Comrade Pete]

Cypher and Specineff, which are both considered light VRs, make Raiden cry manly tears...

Yeah I use Specineff most of the time, and pretty much all of my fights against Raidens have been pretty easy. It could just be that the Raiden players I get matched up with aren't very good, though.

Yep - I play as Raiden most of the time but I always get hammered when I come up against Specineff. Now I'm by no means an expert player so that may explain it but anyone have any tips?

[Davo87]

Its kinda hard, but u have to control the initiative of the match, Ill post some suggestions: Use RTCW half cancel when u see him setting up giant orb, as it destroys it if u see fit. If u see them hiding behind a block to do his giant scythe or giant orb, double jump into laser would surprise them. (tho ofcos do it under good circumstances.) becareful of giant scythe as raiden is too slow to sidedash on reaction. Only luck I had was to double jump. Throw a lot of bombs when in midrange to close quarter fight, so he cannot snipe u behind ur back. What kind of Specy player was it? Does he like charging forth a lot, or turtle away. I believe the latter gives the most problems. -_-

[Comrade Pete]

What kind of Specy player was it? Does he like charging forth a lot, or turtle away. I believe the latter gives the most problems. -_-

It's more the hanging back and getting me with the orbs & scythes. My style of play is pretty much 'Maximum Attack' so I guess i'm just being a bit too careless

Cheers for the tips though!

[DeepInTheHops]

Yep - I play as Raiden most of the time but I always get hammered when I come up against Specineff. Now I'm by no means an expert player so that may explain it but anyone have any tips?

Hey I think I played a ranked match against you once... do you have a picture of Lenin as your avatar on XBLA?

[Comrade Pete]

Yep - I play as Raiden most of the time but I always get hammered when I come up against Specineff. Now I'm by no means an expert player so that may explain it but anyone have any tips?

Hey I think I played a ranked match against you once... do you have a picture of Lenin as your avatar on XBLA?

Yep - that's me

Although I chop & change the pic fairly often. Gamertag is Comrade Pete so wing me a friends request if you like - need some practice against Specineff!

[Zaarock]

I added you pete, probably wont lag much fighting you since we're both european. up for some matches now? Pretty annoying having my friends list full when this game came out lol.

[Davo87]

Dordray seems to be one of Specineff's worst matchups. Namely, one drill is enough to turn the tide of the game in a crucial situation. The Dordray I fought was playing a bit like Raiden, pre-angled V hurricane and flame thrower. Flame thrower goes surprisingly far and the RT V-hurricane hurts Specy. The jump spinning ring of death is also hard to dodge if he spins irregularly.

The risk reward of staying mid range against Dordray isnt to specy's favour unless punishing a jump move. Just have to be more careful when he setup RTLW which ambushes from your back. Theres too many things that renders Dordray dangerous just by being in line with him: CW, RTRW and also the returning drill. I start to find obstacle stages more of a hinderance simply bcos Dordray can still make use of all his arsenal and setting up more traps, while specy is limited to CW, LW and have to pick the right shot for RWRT unlike open space.

One thing I do find bullshit is Dordray's Varmor at 100% is WTF good!! I did forward dash RW point blank and it deflected! Also need to be weary what moves does knockdown to Dordray or its a painful punish. So far for knockdown: Forwarddash crRW, crRTRW, diagonalforwarddash crCW. Even RTLW (purple Otama) cannot knockdown.

Regarding about knockdown, is it an effect on when the number of hits accumulate or relating to Varmor aswell?

[VR-Eli]

Dordray seems to be one of Specineff's worst matchups. Namely, one drill is enough to turn the tide of the game in a crucial situation. The Dordray I fought was playing a bit like Raiden, pre-angled V hurricane and flame thrower. Flame thrower goes surprisingly far and the RT V-hurricane hurts Specy. The jump spinning ring of death is also hard to dodge if he spins irregularly.

The risk reward of staying mid range against Dordray isnt to specy's favour unless punishing a jump move. Just have to be more careful when he setup RTLW which ambushes from your back. Theres too many things that renders Dordray dangerous just by being in line with him: CW, RTRW and also the returning drill. I start to find obstacle stages more of a hinderance simply bcos Dordray can still make use of all his arsenal and setting up more traps, while specy is limited to CW, LW and have to pick the right shot for RWRT unlike open space.

One thing I do find bullshit is Dordray's Varmor at 100% is WTF good!! I did forward dash RW point blank and it deflected! Also need to be weary what moves does knockdown to Dordray or its a painful punish. So far for knockdown: Forwarddash crRW, crRTRW, diagonalforwarddash crCW. Even RTLW (purple Otama) cannot knockdown.

Regarding about knockdown, is it an effect on when the number of hits accumulate or relating to Varmor aswell?

In a situation like that, I think I'd take advantage of dordray's slow speed and focus on keeping his weapons locked down just to piss the other player off so that they stop using cover as much.

[Davo87]

Fighting closer seems to yield some results for me. Tho if I dont disable his LW, there is always a chance Ill eat Drill rush. The ones that likes straightline setups with flame and hurricane have a weakness which is rigidity. Tho Im more afraid of those random or frequent spammers of rushes which forces me to jump more.

Grys-vok is another annoying advesary. His Forward dashing RW is so dangerous even at mid to far range. Its fast and its a long stream. Bcos Specineff's dash is short, I cant take advantage of punishing with RW as easily without getting hit. So matches resort to simply dashing non stop, runaway further etc. Once again, his RW is extremely dangerous. Its like Jaguarandi bazookas. Curse RW first!!

[DeepInTheHops]

As a Specineff player I know exactly what you mean. Dordray's V-Armor is insane. I even vented about it a little bit over at Shmups Forum a week ago. Specineff's RW is pretty much worthless most of the time, which doesn't leave you with much firepower to work with. I also struggle with Angelan for the same reason, although she's not quite as bad.

Luckily it seems like not too many people use Dordray in ranked matches.

[rvr67michael]

Dordray really is a tough matchup for Specineff, when I'm playing Dordray (which is most of the time) I often feel pretty bad when a vs Spec match shows up.

I know this is a tough thing to do, but if you can get good at blocking the rushes, you can punish him easily. I know this, because it happens to me a lot against advanced players, and it means Dordray has to get a lot more careful about doing the rushes or stop using them directly. This has happened to me so much that I'll try to severely limit my rushes to just a couple times per round, because it will only work if it is a surprise (and even then, it's possible to hear it initiate, even if you can't see it).

The most powerful Spec players I've fought tend to avoid mid range and go for a long-distance defensive game, and considering Dordray's offense I don't blame them. Locking out any weapon will severely hamper him at a distance, and the RTLW can be a real nuisance if Dordray is trying to close (because it'll end up behind him and out view). I generally feel like Dor basically eats Spec alive more than any other character, but those are what seem to work best on me personally.

[DeepInTheHops]

Dordray really is a tough matchup for Specineff, when I'm playing Dordray (which is most of the time) I often feel pretty bad when a vs Spec match shows up.

Kind of like how Specineff players feel when they're challenged by a Raiden.

I try keep my distance but that damn drill always gets me. Plus it seems like most people can dodge Specineff's CW at long ranges pretty easily. I love that CW, but without the RW to compliment it it doesn't seem nearly as awesome.

[Flyer]

I keep thinking this is 5.2, with the overpowered CW...